August 6th, 2013
01:30 PM ET
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Editor's note: Video by Jeremy Harlan, CNN photojournalist; text by Sarah LeTrent, Eatocracy editor.

Some residents of Grand Isle, Vermont, don’t want to talk about what happened in that blue building on Pearl Street. Others have an awful lot to say on the matter.

A cattle trailer, spray-painted in red with the Animal Liberation Front’s acronym “ALF,” still sits out front of the complex now shrouded in overgrown weeds.

It’s an eerie reminder of the events just four years ago that thrust this tiny town of fewer than 2,000 people into the national spotlight.

In October 2009, the now-deserted structure – which once housed the veal processing plant Bushway Packing Inc. - was permanently shut down by the U.S. Department of Agriculture after an animal protection organization, the Humane Society of the United States, revealed an undercover video showing plant workers kicking, dragging, stunning and skinning live calves that were less than a month old.

It was yet another blow to the U.S. veal industry, which has long been mired in conflict with animal welfare groups because of its use of crates to restrain the calves’ movement.

According to the American Veterinary Medical Association, consumers seldom cite animal welfare as a concerning food issue but express it as “a matter of high concern” for veal.

But just 40 miles from where that horrifying video was filmed in Grand Isle, in the small town of Fairfield, Vermont, the folks behind Stony Pond Farm are among a number of smaller-scale dairy farmers trying to persuade consumers and fellow farmers alike to think outside the pen when it comes to veal – and they’re aiming to make more humane rearing and slaughtering practices an industry standard.

By definition, veal is the flesh of young cattle. It stems from the Latin word vitellus, meaning small calf. Veal has always been viewed as a high-end product; in Roman times, the ability to slaughter an animal before it reached its full potential was a sign of wealth. It’s a staple in Italian and French cuisines, but over the course of the past three decades, it’s become almost taboo in the United States.

“I don’t even know how many folks knew why they didn’t eat veal,” Stony Pond’s Tyler Webb said of his first trip to the Burlington Farmers' Market to sell his veal cuts. “They just knew you weren’t supposed to.”

tyler webb veal calf

The answer isn’t hard to come by: The crating system of commercial veal production has become a major point of contention for American consumers.

“When veal became popular at the end of World War II and as consumers became interested in what was a very popular food in Europe, farmers began to adopt new technologies to expand food production,” said Beth Anne Mumford, spokeswoman for the American Veal Association.

“The individual stalls were designed to provide for individual care and would also limit the potential for disease transfer from one young calf to the next.”

According to the American Veterinary Medical Association, individual pens for veal calves are the norm (the typical dimensions are 22 inches wide by 54 inches long). The cows are removed from their mothers within a few hours to a few days after birth and placed on a milk replacer of 40 essential vitamins and nutrients.

Calves are often tethered to prevent mobility for cross-sucking - when calves suck at each other’s bodies or heads - an abnormal behavior that calves can develop when they’re weaned off milk and need oral stimulation.

Because they are not typically fed mother’s milk and don’t graze, crate-raised calves lack iron and therefore produce a much paler, almost white meat when they’re slaughtered between 18 and 20 weeks (PDF).

“Stalls that greatly restrict the behavior of calves are not an adequate housing system,” wrote animal scientist Pierre Le Neindre in the Journal of Animal Science (PDF). “If the crates are small enough to prevent calves from lying in a comfortable position, they also impair the welfare of calves and lower their growth rate and disease resistance.”

Such veal crates have been banned in England since 1990 and the European Union since 2007. Several U.S. states have also banned their use, including Rhode Island, California, Arizona, Michigan, Maine, Ohio and Colorado.

“Clearly, the veal crate has become the paradigm of factory farming and animal abuse for many decades,” said Paul Shapiro, the vice president of farm animal protection for the Humane Society of the United States.

The Food Safety and Inspection Service rebuts that assertion, saying that individual stalls provide individual care so long as the calves can stand, stretch, lie down and groom themselves, but there are no federal regulations in place to dictate the size of the individual pens.

Veal’s bad rap didn’t stop Webb from entering the fray, but he’s preaching a model of production that he contends is more humane.

Webb has operated Stony Pond with his wife, Melanie, since 2002. In 2004, he resigned from his job with the Natural Resources Conservation Service to focus full-time on the family-owned, certified organic farm. Organic certification means Webb’s farm complies with USDA organic regulations and allows him to sell and label his products as organic.

When the economy turned sour at the height of the recession, organic milk sales suffered. Families looked to save money on groceries and opted out of organic products, while operating costs for producers continued to rise.

Webb’s cooperative, Organic Valley, decided to send less of its milk into the consumer supply instead of lowering the price or culling the herd.

“One of the ways that we thought we could contribute to the benefit of the co-op as a whole was to figure out how to divert some of the milk of the fluid sales market and add some value to it,” Webb said.

For Webb, the answer was to pasture-raise veal calves on a whole-milk diet, supplemented with a little organic grain. He raised 15 calves that first year to rave reviews and has been doing it ever since. This year, he has 15 more, ranging from 2 to 4 months old.

“Some chefs and farm partners really stepped up and said that ‘if you guys are going to do it, we’re going to buy it,’ ” Webb said. “There wasn’t a lot of risk for us. Now, we’re guaranteed to sell everything that we’re going to raise.”

For dairy farmers like Webb, pasture-raising veal is a two-fold solution: The method adds value to the male calf, typically perceived by the industry as a byproduct; and as a sustainable farmer, he can allow his calves to express their natural tendencies by freely grazing in the sun.

“It took an education on our part and an open invitation for folks to come see what we were doing and come see the animals running around,” Webb said.

On dairy farms, female calves are typically preferred and groomed to join the milking herd, while male calves are either auctioned to veal houses or killed at birth; only a small number are reared as beef.

Nowadays, dairy farmers can even sort the X- from the Y-bearing sperm to guarantee a heifer. On farms that use sexed semen, 80% of calves born are female, said Diane Bothfeld, the deputy secretary of the Vermont Agency of Agriculture. The ratio used to be 50-50.

“We often say we’re managing this ecological, ethical and economic balance,” Webb said. “And we recognize that the veal calves are part of that and honor them by giving them the best life that we can for that four-month period that they’re with us.”

While optimistic about change, Webb understands consumer reluctance – not because of the age of the animals (noting that chickens, pigs and lamb are roughly the same age at slaughtering) but because of the way many veal calves are raised.

Things are only further complicated for the consumer because the USDA offers no clear definition of veal. The Food Safety and Inspection Service says “veal” can mean (PDF):

  • Calf: A calf is a young bovine of either sex that has not reached puberty (up to about 9 months of age) and has a maximum live weight of 750 pounds.
  • “Bob” veal: About 15% of veal calves are marketed up to 3 weeks of age or at a weight of 150 pounds. These are called bob calves.
  • “Special-fed” Veal: Special, milk-fed and formula fed veal calves usually are fed nutritionally balanced milk or soy based diets. These specially controlled diets contain iron and 40 other essential nutrients, including amino acids, carbohydrates, fats, minerals and vitamins. The majority of veal calves are special-fed.

Now, there are pasture-raised veal producers like Webb to add to the bullpen.

“We often use the tagline ‘this isn’t your grandmother’s veal’ as we’re marketing the product,” Webb said. “It’s not fair for anything to be locked up in a dark space, unable to turn around. ... Food without a conscience is a sad, sad reality.”

For the Humane Society’s Shapiro, pastured veal is certainly moving in the right direction when it comes to animal welfare, but he wants to see the bar continue to rise. Another big concern, he says, is how soon the calves are taken from their dairy cow mothers.

According to the standards set by Humane Farm Animal Care, a nonprofit certification organization, a “humanely raised” calf must receive colostrum - nutrient-dense first milk - from its mother, a replacement heifer or a frozen source within six hours of birth.

Webb raises both his veal and the replacement heifers on bottles filled with whole raw milk, but they do get the colostrum from their own mothers right after birth.

Consumers have long been paying attention to controversial practices in the wider industry: Both production and consumption of veal have been rapidly dropping for nearly four decades, according to the USDA.

U.S. production of veal totaled 126 million pounds in 2012; compare that with a staggering 911 million pounds in 1975.

In 1944, veal consumption was at an all-time high of 8.6 pounds per person, but 1988 was the last year consumption was more than one pound per person. By 2008, Americans were consuming only about 0.3 pounds of veal per person yearly, according to the USDA’s Economic Research Service.

Lisa Weeks is one of those meat eaters who has excluded veal from her diet. The 33-year-old New Yorker grew up with a European mother who did not agree with how commercial veal was raised.

“It stuck with me,” she said.

“While I would not be against trying humanely raised veal, I think there are plenty of other options to cook and eat instead.”

Unsurprisingly, the veal industry has started to recognize it has an image problem.

Jurian Bartelse, president of the American Veal Association, also processes about 3,000 veal calves each year at Provitello Farms in Elba, New York.

The board of the American Veal Association adopted a resolution in 2007 recommending that all veal producers in the United States convert to group housing by 2017. In group housing, the calves are still kept indoors but are allowed to interact with each other and roam freely within the pen. Bartelse says the association recommends about 20 square feet per calf.

In 2012, the association said that 70% of calves raised by its members had made the transition. The association represents four of the five leading packers/processors and three of the five leading producers, according to Mumford.

Small, independent farms might find making the changes cost-prohibitive, Mumford wrote in an e-mail.

The association also adopted a statement of ethical principles and code of conduct in 2010 to “confirm an industry commitment to ‘veal raised right,’ ” according to an American Veal Association press release.

Bartelse says that despite popular perception, the mobility of the calf has no real influence on the tenderness of the meat. So why isn't every dairy farmer following the pasture-raised approach?

“I think that would change the whole product that we’re producing,” Bartelse said.

For smaller dairy farms, he said, it’s easier to sell the male calves to an auction barn, which will in turn send them to a commercial veal operation, than to invest in them.

Bartelse considers Webb’s veal “more of a niche product.” According to USDA Market News, in May 2013, 750 non-formula-fed veal calves were slaughtered under federal inspection; this is compared with 27,323 bob calves and 26,233 formula-fed calves. And in 2012, 118 million pounds of commercial veal were in the supply, compared with 8 million pounds of farm veal.

Webb agrees. “We’re lucky, but I think it’s a challenging proposition,” he said. “It’s really going to take more awareness and more consumer demand to attract the entrepreneur who might be able to unite farms together into producing more sustainable humanely-treated veal.”

Natural rearing methods can translate into a better product. Webb's veal is pinker in color than the commercial variety; pasture-raised veal is often referred to as rose veal for this very reason. The cuts are usually smaller and have a more delicate taste.

According to a study by the Center for Agricultural Development and Entrepreneurship (PDF), a New York nonprofit, pasture-raising livestock isn’t free from its own challenges, like a 20% to 100% increase in the time it takes to raise an animal to market weight, fewer established distribution channels, increased pasture rotation, more fencing and fewer veterinarians who specialize in grass-based nutrition.

John Delpha, chef and owner of the Belted Cow Bistro in nearby Essex Junction, Vermont, said he became interested in humane veal during his travels in northern Italy, where he encountered a rosier-colored veal with a delicate flavor and creaminess.

Delpha met Webb at the Burlington Farmers Market and noticed the veal meat in a small cooler behind Webb’s stand. Delpha took it back to his restaurant and cooked it; he’s been hooked ever since.

“This veal is as tender as any veal you’re ever going to know,” Delpha said. “And this veal walks in fields; they kick at each other; they jump. They have a good time.”

Delpha is having a hard time keeping up with demand, but for Webb, remaining small is a conscious decision.

“We want our farm to remain the size that we have, so that the level of integrity of what I’m putting on my family’s plate is the same quality to hopefully get to your family’s plate,” Webb said.

Both men say they’re optimistic that as more consumers get a taste for pasture-raised veal, more dairy farmers will be convinced to join the herd.

How do you feel about veal? Would you eat it if it was pasture-raised? Share your thoughts in the comments below, or weigh in on Facebook or Twitter with @Eatocracy using the hashtag #vealgood or #vealbad.

soundoff (407 Responses)
  1. Chicken Spice

    I happen to own a flock of seven pullets (young female chickens). They never fail to make me smile and have very distinct personalities! It's funny to look at them from the window because whenever I pass, they all stop doing whatever they were doing to look up at us as if to say, "Hey. Got any peaches?"

    September 24, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
  2. Mich

    These beautiful creatures feel pain and fear. With so many other foods on this earth why eat any animal?

    September 23, 2013 at 11:43 pm |
    • rebecca a

      It's a very sad story to see someone raising animals to be killed in this story. Very disheartening. I was just reading a quote from the World Peace Diet from Albert Einstein who said, " I have very early on abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men will look upon the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men." It is our culture that allows us separate our pets from calves. We build a wall so we can eat non-human animals. It doesn't come natural. One day maybe there will more of us seeing and living the connections. For now, I am glad the calves are not in small cages.

      October 12, 2013 at 10:24 pm |
  3. Jarnessa

    Vegans- chill. First of all, non-vegans will not change if you stuff all this information roughly down their throats. Eating meat has been done by humans for so long, and the fact is that even if its not a "necessary food", people still ENJOY eating meat. I have many vegetarian and vegan friends and feel bad they can't experience the pleasure of eating meat products. I was vegetarian for a few years and only really felt complete when I started eating meat again. If humane practices are so important to you vegans, please take it up with the food industry, and get off the happy meat eating consumers' backs. Thank you!

    September 23, 2013 at 10:17 pm |
  4. lorik807

    No matter how you look at it eating meat is wrong. Eating veal, lamb, etc, is even worse. When you drink milk you are forcing another baby to die. Sentinent animals are not for our eating. I have not eaten veal for 40 years. I found out when I was 15 what it was and took a vow to never eat it again. I am a vegetarian and refuse to eat any animals. Use your brain when you buy your food. Think about who you are eating.

    September 16, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
    • MW

      Amen to you sister!

      September 16, 2013 at 7:43 pm |
  5. Kelly

    I don't eat baby anything. Ugh.

    August 26, 2013 at 6:17 am |
    • Weeds

      no fried eggs? The chicken you eat are practically babies – six weeks old.

      September 6, 2013 at 5:49 pm |
      • MW

        Uhhhmmmm Noooo an unfertilized egg will never be anything more than an egg.

        September 16, 2013 at 7:48 pm |
  6. barbara

    I stopped eating meat in college and veal is why. One night in the cafeteria as I raised my fork to eat, the girl I was sitting with abruptly said, "You know you're eating a baby calf, right?" I put the fork the down.

    August 19, 2013 at 8:04 pm |
  7. Food With a Face

    Eat me, all of you. Just. Eat. Me.

    August 15, 2013 at 3:51 pm |
  8. Veal

    "Mooooo...( */SLASH* )...MOOAGgghaechghurgggadgguhhhhh......."
    *BLEED* *BLEED* *BLEED*...

    August 14, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • burgerman

      grind .....grind .........grind................pat....pat .....pat............sizzle.......sizzle....sizzle......flip......sizzle....sizzle....sizzle flip.......gobble gobble gobble.....burp.......yum yum yum.

      September 30, 2013 at 5:47 pm |
    • burgerman

      .........grind .....grind .........grind................pat....pat .....pat............sizzle.......sizzle....sizzle......flip......sizzle....sizzle....sizzle flip.......gobble gobble gobble.....burp.......yum yum yum.

      September 30, 2013 at 5:50 pm |
  9. CEW

    I quit eating veal long before I knew how the calves were raised – the texture was almost ... pasty/grainy/icky. And it was bland. Don't understand why anyone would want veal when they could have a filet mignon instead. And no baby cows were killed for the fillet, which tastes better anyway.

    August 14, 2013 at 3:37 pm |
    • Steak All The Way!

      Two flamenons with garlic mashed potatoes...

      August 14, 2013 at 3:47 pm |
  10. John

    it is this liberal apologetic softness that allows for exploitation of the environment seem like a ride at disney land.

    August 13, 2013 at 5:37 pm |
  11. Michallangelo

    Veal is sweet and tasty Om Nom Nom Nom.Cute cows be damn!

    August 12, 2013 at 9:51 pm |
  12. rosethornne

    Just because you're going to whack something over the head and then chew on it, that doesn't mean you have to be mean to it before the whacking.

    August 12, 2013 at 6:46 pm |
  13. Tony

    MMmmmm... veal. So delicious. I like mine thinly sliced. So good.

    August 12, 2013 at 2:07 pm |
  14. SlapHappy

    Sad to see a thread about veal devolve into the usual vegan attacks. What is so hard about vegans doing their thing and letting people who prefer a healthy and balanced diet do ours? The far left seems to be all about "choice" until you begin exercising your own. Then they claim to know best. That is why our country is in the poor shape it is in.

    August 12, 2013 at 11:23 am |
    • Provoked

      No. That there are still people concerned about victims is the one thread that keeps this country civilized. Normally no one would care what color your car is, who you decide to marry, or if you wear a bow or string tie. These choices don't involve unwilling third party victims. Actions without moral implications ends when there are others exploited because of those choices. That is after all how we will continue to evolve as an "advanced" society.

      August 12, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
      • Really?

        You're kidding right? Most of the omnivores I know could not care less what others eat. Go live on sawdust of that is your thing. It is the vegans who are annoying, pushy and preachy. You people are worse than the door to door religious types or the MLM sellers.

        August 12, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
        • Provoked

          Sawdust? Not hardly... That is what they feed to livestock! March 6, 2013: MOUNT PLEASANT (AP) — A Southeast Iowa farmer has come up with a surprising solution to the high cost of cattle feed. Bob Batey, who farms near here, says his 50 cows devour the sawdust mixture he feeds them.

          Batey said he stumbled upon the idea in the 1970s when he noticed cows eating sawdust that washed into their pasture from a nearby paper mill. Batey, who has a lumber mill on his farm, discovered a way to treat and cook sawdust that results in a digestible feed that cows find tasty.

          I assure you there are vast amounts of more tasty and nutritious vegetables, legumes, fruits, nuts and seeds to eat instead.

          I don't mean to be pushy or preachy... Just factual. The evidence is clear: We do not need meat to thrive and nonhumans don't need to be killed for this unnecessary food. This is contrary to our professed ethical code to cause no harm to innocent life unless there is no alternative - The choices are abundant not to harm others. If you find this message annoying perhaps it's you who might want to figure out why truth should trouble you so.

          August 12, 2013 at 3:28 pm |
      • Western Pilot

        Well stated! Thank you.

        August 26, 2013 at 1:20 pm |
  15. CarenM

    I used to eat veal when I was young, my Mom cooked it for the family. Then in the 80's I saw a video of how they slaughter young calves and that is veal. I stopped eating veal from that point on. I still eat other forms of meat. Then recently I was at a customer's farm and a young cow was staring at me. Beautiful animal with large sad eyes. I seriously want to stop eating beef altogether. The farmer told me they send their cows to be slaughtered at 14 months. Not much of a life. My daughter is a vegetarian. I know the pros and cons. Little by little I've been trying to get the rest of my family – husband, kids.. to reduce the amount of meat we eat.

    August 12, 2013 at 9:47 am |
    • Provoked

      Thank you for your compassion and empathy CarenM! I agree that there is so much to filter through to finally see the beautiful eyes of a life who desperately wants to live. But it is not our fault. We were taught since the beginning not to see and not to care. I was vegetarian many years before my family joined me. As time goes they will see by your example that the courage to witness and change for the better is it's own reward. Peace on your travels.

      August 12, 2013 at 10:28 am |
  16. Dinesh

    The issue seems to be that 90% of the people who order Veal have never been anywhere close to a slaughter house and do not know how it came about, they just see that as a menu item in a restaurant and believe it is the fashionable thing to do, acceptable thing to order, in fact it's a specialty and just don't see anything wrong with it, I wish there was a way, they could see a video of what the Calf went through and how it ended up on their plate before they ordered it, it's just pure marketing, the industry hides it from us, the blood, the gory, the suffering, the cruelty. We just don't know what we are doing, we are caught in a collective lie, I am happy to see that we waking up, slowly but surely.

    August 11, 2013 at 8:47 pm |
    • Provoked

      You are right Dinesh. It is becoming more obvious all the time that our eating habits have not been put to the test against our ethical code. We believe we are acting consistently with our values of kindness and fair play. But our indoctrination since the first bit of meat was put into our mouths forbid us to question till now. I consider this a great feat for our generation and the ones to come to expose the myths for what they are. We can only heal from then on. The world will not suffer if it chooses to be compassionate.

      August 11, 2013 at 11:35 pm |
      • ReedMeate

        Provoked, i fail to understand why you are so passionate about the process by which veal is created, but you say nothing about humans being exploited to harvest rice, or thousands of children being forced to labor in South America. You cry out for animal rights, but not for human rights? Have you no heart? Or are you so entirely misguided in your stance for animal rights that you believe how animals are killed for food is more important than humans having their rights stolen? You disgust me. You are a self serving jerk.

        September 28, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
        • justthinkin

          Since the subject matter is Veal/Beef perhaps that is why Provoked has not brought up other the injustices of other industries. Forcryingoutloud can a person speak on a value that they hold without being spit upon?
          And I'm just sayin but really? You are disgusted by Provoked? Disgusted? Really? A bit harsh don't you think? Or are you disgusted by anyone who has thoughts and values other than your own. You belong in congress.

          September 28, 2013 at 6:46 pm |
    • The Truth

      I grew up near slaughterhouses and have been in them. I have absolutely no problem ordering and eating the gloriously tasty veal and all other meats. I have even visited farms were the animals come from. When petting the little calf my thoughts were "how cute and how tastey." I have never met anyone who worked in a slaughterhouse who has anything against eating veal, even the ones who could not stand the sight or smells and quickly quit. I got a feeling you never been inside a slaughterhouse, probably never even drove by them. Most likely you saw a video on the internet and for the first time in your shielded life you saw the real world.

      Should we improve the conditions how we raise and treat our animals, yes. Do we need to stop eating veal and other meats to satisfy a thin skinned minority, no. Is this a bad time to point out when you eat vegetables and fruites you also killed living things that can feel pain? The only difference is they don't have faces and vocal cords. Now someone will always bring up how would I feel if I were used as food. My answer is bring it on, they can eat me if they can. I give a tip of the hat to any animal that defends itself successfully against a hunter or slaughter worker. To the winner goes the spoils, aka nature.

      August 12, 2013 at 9:06 am |
      • Provoked

        Hello The Truth – Which sadly you are not telling! There is absolutely no reason to even hint at the idea that plants feel pain. They have no central nervous system. They have no pain receptors. Honestly, no credible scientist, biologist or horticulturalist will vouch for your theory of plant sentience let alone plant "suffering".

        Secondly, even IF plants could feel pain we'd still have a justifiable reason for doing them harm. It would be for our survival. Man MUST eat plants in order to live. The same certainly isn't so with meat let alone "veal". Furthermore, no ideology would be taken seriously if it caused the extinction of it's own species.

        And IF you are so concerned with plant "pain" you still would cause them less "suffering" if you ate them directly instead of filtering 8 times the amount through fattening animals to get the same yield in nutritional value.

        On the point of whose has seen bloodshed and who also has no repulsion afterwards. You may have encountered and may attract an entirely different caliper of human beings than I and others have. There are many stories written by individuals who have worked in slaughterhouses and who have forevermore been changed by that experience. The book Slaughterhouse: The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry by Gail A. Eisnitz is filled cover to cover of interviews. Ex-cattleman Howard Lyman, author, speaker and now a vegan advocate, says "Once you go into a slaughter plant, it will brand your soul for life". Virgil Butler worked in a Tyson plant and recalls the experience with horror. Timothy Pachirat author of Every Twelve Seconds Industrialized Slaughter and the Politics of Sight brilliantly reveals the savage toll on not only the butchered animals but on workers as well... And for that you may even read Upton Sinclair's account in The Jungle.

        Those who are not revolted by the experience usually aren't due to desperation. The packing houses are filled with illegal workers and other individuals who must endure these nightmarish sights and sounds because of economic despair and impoverishment. I have personally spoken to 3 individuals who all bonded as friends after having witnesses the killing of "worthless" calves on a dairy. The support they showed for each other as I questioned them about this experience was an indicator of how horrible the event must have been. Two out of three don't eat land flesh any more... The other still consumes sea-creatures. So as I said prior... It might be the type of person you are attracting if you don't know of anyone disgusted by slaughterhouse work or slaughterhouse blood-letting.

        Finally, anyone can be callous. Anyone can be a brute. A thug. A non-feeling, non-caring, apathetic shell. But I insist that those who have no sympathy or care for the pointless, bloody theft of innocent life aren't the better for it; Nor is society as a whole. Good day.

        August 12, 2013 at 10:18 am |
        • Holy Manifesto Batman!@Provoked


          August 20, 2013 at 1:02 pm |
        • Provoked

          YB:TSTC = Your brain – Too small to comprehend. :/

          August 20, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
      • Provoked

        What good timing! Just today there is this report from Vegan Outreach: "Jon Camp sends this story to accompany the following pictures (click for larger): At a rest stop in central Illinois, I saw this truck full of chickens bound for slaughter. I walked by it to get some pics. A man standing by a different truck for a freight company yelled out, "After seeing stuff like this, you almost want to go vegetarian." Surprised to hear that, I told him that I was veg. He then let me know that he's cut pretty much all meat from his diet, though he's still working on pork. This has been the result of seeing too many such trucks too close. It goes to show that we never know when we're going to find an unexpected ally."

        So it must be true! It all depends on the kind of "kind" folks that are attracted to you. ;)

        August 12, 2013 at 10:38 am |
      • Dinesh

        Actually, I grew up as a vegetarian in a country that did not have massive meat processing slaughter houses like here, what was there was butcher shops that actually killed the animal right in front of you in plan sight, so I have heard the cries, seen the blood, the suffering, first hand. But to put this in perspective, even the friends that I grew up with who ate meat, did not eat meat like the way it's done here, for breakfast, snacks, lunch and dinner...meat was balanced, it was for special occasion and they did not consider killing helpless animals as some type of a trophy deal, food was celebrated with gratitude, I have never ever seen someone celebrating Veal or the Cruelty involved or something like people actually supporting Foie Gras.

        After coming here, it appears that what people are missing is, 1. Nobody needs that much meat 2. There are plenty of vegetarian choices that are equally nutritious 3. Media/Marketing almost present meat like it's a's like a piece of bread...there are no feelings, you forget that an innocent, helpless life was just killed.

        August 12, 2013 at 4:48 pm |
  17. Micheal

    I love veal and cook with it often. I use the rosey, pink veal that is the signal of a properly raised young cow. I don't even think I've seen white veal in ages. In Europe they don't even call it veal anymore. The pink stuff is called "young beef".

    August 10, 2013 at 11:42 am |
    • B33tle

      I like the Italian recipes for veal – the ones that presuppose the veal is white. My all-time favorite is Veal Piccatta

      August 10, 2013 at 12:01 pm |
  18. Repocrat

    Wonder how many of the anti-veal folks eat/drink dairy products. Every time you eat a slice of cheese it may as well be a slice of veal.

    August 10, 2013 at 9:16 am |
    • Shri

      Not really. A cow or calf does not have to die providing milk for cheese. this comparison of dairy products with meat is insanely inaccurate.

      August 10, 2013 at 4:57 pm |
      • Provoked

        Hi Shri – I think it's quite safe to say that in industrial dairy production all cows are artificially inseminated. All calves are removed from their mother's hours after birth. And most of the "unwanted" males are disposed of shortly after that. In this paradigm, it is quite reasonable to associate cow's milk products with the needless death of millions of calves. There is also the sad reality that most cows are "retired" at a very young age themselves... I believe the industry model can profitably "use" them for 3 to 5 years – After that they are "spent" and disposed of. A cow can live a few decades otherwise.

        August 10, 2013 at 10:58 pm |
      • Repocrat

        Actually Shiri there is a direct connection with dairy products as the article states. Because female calves are preferred....they will replace the current dairy cows in 1.5 years.....the male calves that are born are either killed or sold to veal farms, only a select few are sold for beef cows.. So yes there is a direct connection to veal and the cheese, milk, cream, etc that you eat. Veal = Dairy. They are directly related.

        August 11, 2013 at 6:03 pm |
      • Just The Facts

        As a matter of fact, many cheese are made with rennet from the stomach of young animals. While there are vegetarian forms of rennet, the majority of cheeses are made with animal rennet, which means that the young animals have to be slaughtered. They are working on genetically engineering microbial forms of this product, but some consider GMO to be worse than slaughtering young animals. Just providing a little factual background.....

        September 6, 2013 at 3:52 pm |
  19. JohnnyBoy

    This article and the sheer amount of stupidity spewing from Provoked's pie hole has ensured that I'll be trying veal for the first time this weekend.

    August 9, 2013 at 8:25 pm |
    • Provoked

      You may not like my remarks but they've hardly been met with any rational counter positioning... Only lots of emotion based prattling. Sorry if the challenges of clear thinking in this debate has you in a reactionary mode rather than in a thoughtful one. I attempted to bring up some useful points... Unfortunately the weren't met with equal respect. But I understand that this is the way it goes when irrationality is met with evidence of such. Cheers.

      August 9, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
    • B33tle

      MMMmmm...Veal Pie....

      August 10, 2013 at 12:02 pm |
    • vegan milk

      JohnnyBoy, why don't you just go and spank your Johnson for some milk product. It will be cruelty-free and presumably free-range although likely not hygenically captured. Yours may also be accompanied by peripheral organic cheese. Probably nobody else wants your product so at least you can collect it.

      August 12, 2013 at 1:22 pm |
  20. Provoked

    Hear, Hear! There's a class #1 recall of approximately 12,600 pounds of boneless veal due to risks that it is contaminated with E. coli O157:H7, E. coli O145 and E. coli O45. Remember to wash, wash, wash those cutting boards and scrub/sanitize those surfaces! Use antibacterial spray whenever possible. Be cautious handling said products around other foods. Cook to an internal temperature of min. 160 degrees.

    Of what they can reclaim of the 7 tons of slaughtered calves – No worries... The landfills will gladly receive them. Humane and sustainable enough for everyone?

    August 9, 2013 at 7:30 pm |
    • SixDegrees

      Meanwhile, 13,600 pounds of salad were recalled due to contamination with cyclospora – the latest in a long series of vegetable and fruit recalls recently caused by contamination with microorganisms.

      What was your point, again? Recalls of produce greatly exceed recalls of meat.

      August 10, 2013 at 6:08 am |
      • SixDegrees

        Also, the salad recall came as more than 200 people were sickened by cyclospora contamination. The veal recall, on the other hand, occurred because of a protocol violation; no illnesses occurred.

        Vegetables are far, far more dangerous than meat.

        August 10, 2013 at 6:11 am |
        • Matt

          To the misinformed idiot who claimed vegetables are "far, far, more dangerous than meat"-food poisoning from vegetables results almost exclusively for watering them with water contaminated by animal waste from factory farming. Educate yourself before spewing misinformation!

          August 10, 2013 at 4:02 pm |
        • Provoked

          Thank you Matt! Exactly! It's hard to imagine how some people believe their method of feeding themselves, can poison the food of other people without rebuke. E-coli, salmonella, listeriosis all originate in the intestines and waste of animals. We have billions of them in warehouses and cages being fed tons of antibiotics just to keep them healthy enough to walk to their own slaughter. Meanwhile they generate more sh*t than cities that are nearby... All without government oversight. It's all with dreadful consequence to us all.

          August 10, 2013 at 10:33 pm |
        • Shri

          almost all of vegetable borne diseases stem from livestock pollution. it rises from the corrupt and disgustingly inhumane practices of US meat industry – animal waste from hormone fed livestock and improper handling of the cattle is the root cause. Go look it up.
          I don't have problems with killing animals for food – every species does that. But we are more capable breed – and we ought to do it more humanely and naturally. Not to mention frikkin let the calf live till it is full age

          August 10, 2013 at 5:00 pm |
        • SixDegrees

          "almost all of vegetable borne diseases stem from livestock pollution. "

          Wow. An outright lie.

          Enjoying watching your argument crumble before it is even built.

          August 11, 2013 at 6:44 am |
        • Provoked

          So am I correct that you are claiming that ecoli, salmonella and listeriosis – (the top 3 causes of food borne illnesses in the U.S.) are from vegetables that carried these diseases "naturally"? Are you saying that these diseases are inherent in vegetables and can exist without influence or contact from mammalian sources? Is this honestly what you are saying? A quick biology 101 refresher will prove that's simply not so. There may be some plant diseases that exist independently from animal contamination... There may be some plant diseases (and plants) that can sicken mammals as well... But they assuredly are NOT "ecoli, salmonella and listeriosis".

          August 11, 2013 at 9:54 am |
        • Provoked

          From the CDC: Campylobacteriosis, E. COLI O157:H7, LISTERIA, Salmonella ALL originate in the intestines/manure of animals. That's fact. How this influences contamination in beef, poultry, eggs and meat was reported on at eatocracy in April

          Or there's this:

          Or this: Ground beef, chicken more likely to cause severe foodborne illnesses in U.S.

          Vegetables – On their own – Without any influence from outside contaminants are hardly more "dangerous" than meat. Not a factual statement at all!

          August 11, 2013 at 10:15 am |
        • What?

          @ Provoked

          You may want that "refresher" yourself as it relates to Listeria monocytogenes. And I suggest microbioloy rather than "biology" – you will find that infinitely more educational.

          August 20, 2013 at 12:56 pm |
      • Provoked

        From Wiki: "They are unicellular, spore-forming, and exclusively parasites of animals." Gee... I wonder if this is like the contamination to sprouts, tomatoes, peppers and lettuce that was later discovered to have been caused by excess "over-spraying " of "nutriments" (better known as poo) from factory farms? E-coli, Salmonella and listeria are all also delivered from the intestines and waste of mammals. And we want to breed billions of them and have their excrement discharged without any EPA oversight? Pure insane folly.

        August 10, 2013 at 10:26 pm |
  21. Ryan

    I dont eat veal, because I dont like the flavor or texture. I'll take a nice Ribeye or Strip anytime. Let them grow and become tasty steaks.

    August 9, 2013 at 4:01 pm |
    • SixDegrees

      I generally agree; veal is quite bland. It definitely needs a sauce or some other strongly flavored accompaniment.

      The bones make excellent stock, due to their high gelatin content. But that stock is also crazy expensive, owing to the cost of veal. You can do as well using turkey wings, roasting them beforehand to add a darker color and depth of flavor.

      August 9, 2013 at 5:21 pm |
      • Jdizzle McHammerpants ♫♫

        Yum! Turkey! Funny birds, too.

        August 9, 2013 at 5:36 pm |
        • RC

          Dumb birds! Tasty though.

          August 12, 2013 at 12:44 pm |
  22. J

    Luv you Proviked! Keep up the good work! :))

    August 9, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
    • Provoked

      It's a good fight... I don't intend to be silenced till their voices are heard. Thanks for including yours along as well. <3

      August 9, 2013 at 6:42 pm |
      • usam

        Thanks Provoked, you are the voice for those who can't speak for themself. Keep up with your great thoughts and reasons.

        August 9, 2013 at 9:33 pm |
        • Provoked

          You too usam! There is no shame in compassion. And no ill in seeking justice for the downed and discarded. The best people in the world have always fought for those who couldn't fight for themselves. Onward! ;)

          August 9, 2013 at 9:38 pm |
      • Shri

        I support you Provoked. The US beef industry and of course people who consume them can be part of it – are so inhumane towards these poor animals. Let them frikkin grow their full age – roam free till they are natural age. and then if you want to eat them kill humanely. Just because you have to kill them you can not do that inhumanely.

        August 10, 2013 at 5:02 pm |
        • Provoked

          Of course what you suggest will never happen for a few reasons... The most important one to the industry is profitability. Why continue to feed a "meat" animal one day after they've reached their potential in the scheme of the bottom line? Also, as we can see... "young flesh" is the most desirable... The gluttonous desires of consumers would hardly want to feast on an "old hen" or an "old cow". And allowing these beings to roam free just isn't feasible either... There simply isn't enough land or resources. It would require the rancher/farmer more intensive labor and he couldn't regulate/monitor these animals with the ease of care that he can if they are tied, caged and confined. They buying public who desires flesh simply wouldn't pay for what it cost to let the "roam free" until they we're killed. I can't think of a single way that any of it could ever by twisted to represent the concept of "humane".

          August 10, 2013 at 11:04 pm |
      • Erika

        Love your responses Provoked!!! Thank you for defending those that cannot speak for themselves. Comments that were made by some of these "half breeds" are truly disturbing. Hoping they have not pro created.

        August 11, 2013 at 8:24 pm |
        • Provoked

          Thank you Erika – I think the truth is more compelling than what my words could ever convey. Take heart that many of us listened and changed our behavior accordingly – Else such conversations wouldn't exist. And it wouldn't be so threatening to those who resist the evidence of a better way. Stay the good fight! It is such a worthy goal! ;)

          August 11, 2013 at 8:41 pm |
  23. humtake

    “I don’t even know how many folks knew why they didn’t eat veal,”

    Easy. Liberals decided that somehow it is morally wrong to mistreat an animal that is going to be slaughtered to be put into our mouths. It is this same holier-than-thou attitude that has also caused them to become the entitlement generation.

    August 9, 2013 at 12:24 pm |
    • SixDegrees

      Pretty much everyone agrees that deliberately mistreating animals is wrong. The animals in question, in particular, exist solely because of us and depend on us for their every need. I have no problem with eating meat. But there is no reason at all not to treat the animals we eat as humanely as possible. Blatant mistreatment has no justification whatsoever; it bespeaks a deformed humanity, or one entirely lacking, and speaks poorly of us.

      August 9, 2013 at 3:18 pm |
      • Provoked

        Hi there – I hear what you say about wanting to treat the animals you eat "humanely". But since eating meat isn't necessary, I was wondering exactly how that's done?
        From Webster’s New World Dictionary
        Humane Hu·mane / hyoomáyn / adj. 1. having what are considered the best qualities of human beings; kind, tender, merciful, sympathetic, compassionate.

        So where doe the orchestrated killing, for profit or gustatory pleasure, of healthy, sentient beings fit into a "kind" or merciful act of slaughter? I honestly try to wrap my mind around how this could be done... Perhaps you can explain? Thank you.

        August 9, 2013 at 6:56 pm |
        • Shri

          although i support vegetarianism, it is difficult to stay that way for many people. the least everyone can agree upon is treat them well, naturally, live till full age – not like a year or less. weaning everyone off of meat is going to take a while.

          August 10, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
    • Provoked

      Oh my! Meat eaters decide which species shall be killed. When, where and how they shall live. What "humane" methods shall be used in their murders... And it is vegans who are called "holier than thou"? Classic black-kettle mentality.

      August 9, 2013 at 6:40 pm |
      • Wakka Wakka@Provoked

        How can you tell you are talking to a vegan?

        Oh, don't worry, they'll tell you. Repeatedly.

        August 12, 2013 at 11:20 am |
        • Provoked

          How can you tell an omnivore? They are habitually in denial and criticize anyone else who is awake and engaged.

          August 12, 2013 at 1:16 pm |
    • MrsFizzy

      Any idiot knows that is wrong. If you don't there's something wrong with you, I don't care how you vote!

      August 10, 2013 at 4:51 pm |
  24. Ann

    I love veal, but I won't eat it. It's not the "cute baby animal" thing. Animals don't know or care how old they are. I just think that veal production is more cruel than most other meat production.

    I eat less meat in general than I used to, anyway. I'm not ready to go completely vegetarian, but I tend to stay toward fish more. Sorry, can't feel too much compassion for a scallop.

    August 9, 2013 at 10:43 am |
    • Natalie

      "Animals don't know or care how old they are" – How exactly can you know that? For one, the blanket term "animal" includes a wide variety of intellectual capacities and emotional capabilities, many of which we have only just begun to discover. Notions that used to be considered uniquely human like the capacity for future planning, language and morality (check out Frans deWaal's works!) have been discovered in nonhuman animals. Such generalized statements as yours do not hold up on a scientific level, rather they reflect our society's need to justify our exploitation of other beings.

      August 12, 2013 at 10:49 am |
      • Ann

        I'm aware of that research. My response still stands.

        Animals have many qualities that we once didn't recognize (memory, emotions, tool use, etc.), but I can't see any evidence that they have life goals like humans do. I can't imagine a calf imagining what it will be like to be a big, grown-up cow, or looking forward to that – or feeling disappointed if they don't achieve that. It's not like a child thinking about what they'd like to be when they grow up.

        If I have a young dog who gets very sick, and I have to face the decision of whether or not to euthanize her, I'M going to struggle with the sadness that her life has been so short. SHE won't. She'll only be concerned about if she's happy and comfortable, not whether or not she managed to reach her 5th birthday. That's the kind of "time-sense" I was talking about.

        August 13, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
  25. Fallon Fallen

    Thanks for another magnificent post. Where else could anybody get that kind of information in such an ideal way of writing? I have a presentation next week, and I'm on the look for such information.

    August 8, 2013 at 5:29 pm |
  26. Peter T.

    You know when you think about it logically you would want your cow to become as large as possible before you slaughter it. That way you get the most meat. The same goes for all grown food. In fact that is probably how it was when humans were nothing more than hunter gatherers, back when we had to eat to live. Today at least in the USA, we have plenty of food, so we can live to eat. When flavor trumps practicality we end up with growing food that is either not ripe or overripe because we enjoy the flavor more. This is why we eat foie gras, caviar, sweat breads, and a whole host of other foods that are not good for us but taste good.

    I have had veal on many occasions. I greatly enjoy it along with lamb, duck, pork, beef, and chicken.

    I am also an animal lover. Who can resist the cuteness of animals. Especially the babies.

    I rather enjoyed the article above. It is good to see someone out there treating animals right. I would much rather buy free range meat any day. That is the way meat should be grown

    The issue I have is with the vegans and PETA out there. They try to force their views on others, and some cases turn to violence (sounds almost like terrorism). I can understand someone not eating meat because of health reasons, or they do not like the taste, but many of the ethical arguments seem rather absurd to me.

    For me the age of the animal at time of slaughter is not an issue. Also as long as the process is quick, I have to issue of how the animal is slaughtered. FYI the best to slaughter a duck for Pressed Duck is to strangle it, I have no plans to have pressed duck anytime soon.

    When it comes to animals that we should or should not eat the line between the two is very gray and fuzzy and is constantly changing and is often flown out in a time of crisis and famine

    August 8, 2013 at 3:57 pm |
    • Snappy


      August 8, 2013 at 4:26 pm |
      • Peter T.

        So why even reply

        August 9, 2013 at 3:35 pm |
    • usam

      You said you love animals. How can you slaughter them. It's so hypocrite.

      August 8, 2013 at 5:11 pm |
      • Peter T.

        I slaughter them because that is what they are there for. All the typical farm animals have been domesticated for hundreds if not thousands of years. We have intentionally breed these animals for food purposes. Just like we have breed dogs for hunting. Or horses for transportation. Or all the animals we have specifically breed for research . Or silkworms for clothing (the same goes for sheep). Just because I like something, or think is cute does not mean that I have forgotten the reason we created these animals in the first place.

        August 9, 2013 at 3:26 pm |
        • Provoked

          But isn't that what was said about women? That they were "made for men"? And that blacks "were made for" whites? And the same with any other ethnic group that could be exploited throughout history. It's always the case that the dominant structure believes it's power is justified... Well – Because it has power. It's a circular argument. In the case of animal exploitation it was simply a matter of might over right. There is no justification other than that our species was able to manipulate and control another. It doesn't mean we are heroes for doing so. Nor does it mean that the "purpose" of these beings is for our use. We just make it so. I content along with countless others that they have a purpose completely separate and beyond our desires, wants and needs.

          August 9, 2013 at 7:24 pm |
    • Jas104

      "The issue I have is with the vegans and PETA out there. They try to force their views on others, and some cases turn to violence (sounds almost like terrorism)." This comment always amuses me, do you have any idea how many fast food advertisements are out there? In essence forcing their views on those of us who choose not to partake? Not only that, myself and other vegetarians I've ever met never "force their views on others", in fact it is quite the opposite. If someone happens to discover I don't eat meat I get a series of questions on why or ridicule. I take it with a grain of salt though, just know that the reason behind us "crazy vegans and vegetarians" comes down to compassion and empathy, nothing more or less.

      August 8, 2013 at 9:50 pm |
      • sam stone

        i find it relatively amusing that the people who gave me the most ridicule over my choice 34 years ago are long dead, from heart disease.

        August 9, 2013 at 9:39 am |
        • Peter T.

          Any time I talk to a vegan or a vegetarian they all try to act smug and superior (just like your comment is) that somehow their choice is what is best for everyone, and that if you don't follow their diet then you are. The point I am trying to make is I don't want people telling what to eat. Nowhere did I say I think vegans and vegetarians should start eating meat. I wish they would do the same thing for us meat eaters and stop telling us what to eat

          As for the terrorist comment, I was mainly referring to all those who attack laboratories and research facilities, they are acting the same as those who burned down the Library of Alexandria and set mankind back several hundred years. Though I do not agree with the use of animal testing in cosmetic industry.

          August 9, 2013 at 3:34 pm |
        • Provoked

          Hi Peter T – Is it really "every time" you talk to a vegan or vegetarian? Really? You might be associating with too many crass people to begin with then. I know a number of fine vegans who aren't at all what you describe them to be.

          I might add though... That the reason some find the need to voice their concern over meat eating is that it comes at such a grave cost to others. Putting aside the killing of nonhumans... There is the environment hazards – It is a world in which we all must live. And then there are the billion or so other humans that starve for the want of the grain that is fed to livestock instead. There's terrible wastefulness of land, fossil fuels and water resources as well. So you see... It's not like they aren't "stakeholders" in this debate too.

          So you see you are not being "told what to eat" but rather being informed of what your choices entail. They aren't without victims and I'm sure you can agree that it's right and good to stick up for those who need help getting their voice heard.

          I also assure you that 99.9% of all vegans are quite peaceful and only wish harmony in the world. If you really look at most of the violence in our society, I have a strong hunch you'll see that it's perpetrated largely by omnivores... Not "ALF" members! Remember... We're the ones who want to stop the killings. ;)

          August 9, 2013 at 7:41 pm |
      • Erica M

        Well said! Thanks from another vegan :)

        August 9, 2013 at 11:11 am |
        • B33tle

          I'm a Level 5 vegan. We don't eat anything that casts a shadow.

          August 10, 2013 at 11:19 am |
      • humtake

        "Not only that, myself and other vegetarians I've ever met never "force their views on others","

        When a group of people actively try to restrict the supply of a food to other people, that IS forcing their views on others. What about those of us who don't mind that the meat we put in our mouths, digest, and excrete was once alive and cute? Why do I have to pay more and search for what I want? Your fast food example is ridiculous. They aren't forcing their views on you, they are showing you their offerings. You can choose to buy it or not. When you restrict something, you don't have the choice to buy it or not, you are the mercy of the group who banned it because of their views...which are now forced on you. Pretty simple to understand.

        August 9, 2013 at 12:28 pm |
        • Peter T.

          Thank You.

          This is a very good point

          Look at how the USA was founded. It originally began as a refuge for those who had different spiritual beliefs who tired of being persecuted by the authorities. It then became about how the people in the colonies were treated differently from those who lived in England. Then about slavery, followed by women's rights, racial rights, disabilities, and now dietary. If you want to be a vegan, fine, but keep your hands off my meat and cheese

          August 9, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
        • Provoked

          In a cultural sense the indoctrination and habits that existed hundreds of years ago affect today's society. I have an extreme problem with the meat, dairy and egg industries receiving grants, funding, tax breaks and assorted favors to continue their operations profitably. I also object to the Federal Government being the primary customer of those industries due to what it purchases for schools, the military and other subsidized institutions. If the playing field were leveled I assure you a 99cent burger would cost $20 dollars or more and beans would be a nickle a pound. I believe that IS forcing one's views on the rest of us.

          August 9, 2013 at 6:37 pm |
        • Dean B

          Provoked...can you please provide information regarding cost of hamburger to beans should government grants end to farmers. It's easy to say something like that...but I prefer to see hard numbers that can back up your statement...with references please.

          For the record...I think all grants to farmers, corporations, etc. should end. With that we might get closer to what things actually cost...not what can be pulled from other areas to hide true costs.

          August 9, 2013 at 9:36 pm |
        • Provoked

          Of course Dean B – And I must say I admire you for requesting evidence to be better equipped to reexamine your position. I am a skeptic too.

          I can point you to this from The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine:

          There is information about PAC contributions from the industry here:

          And there's a good article from the Washington Post:

          I don't know how many links I can post without having my reply thrown into the spam-can... But I certainly can give many more examples if you request them. I also suggest digging a little on your own. You also might want to consider that the Department of Natural Resources is exterminating (via trapping and poisoning) billions of wild-life creatures (with tax dollars) in order to "protect" livestock interests. There's also the Bison hazing from Yellow Stone Park for fear of brucellosis and of course horses are being round up by the BLM and warehoused to protect cattle interests. All this is with tax dollars.

          There's also information you can find by researching "Welfare Ranching" The majority of the American public does not know that livestock grazing in the arid West has caused more damage than the chainsaw and bulldozer combined. Welfare Ranching: The Subsidized Destruction of the American West is a seven-pound book featuring 346 pages of articles and photographs by expert authors and photographers on the severe negative impacts of livestock grazing on western public lands. The book is available free on line.

          Finally there are untold costs that taxpayer and home owners endure with the ever encroaching degradation of their communities due to hog and chicken farms. The stench is so bad these neighbors are having respiratory illnesses and other ailments. Flies so intense they can't enjoy any out door activities on their own property. And of course the well water, river sheds have become polluted and unusable due to leaking manure lagoons and over-spraying "nutrient waste" on to the land. There is literally so much "poo" that's it's become a burden to tax payers on how to clean up the mess. Look at what happened to the Chesapeake Bay – Sadly, it takes exhausting years and limitless funds to fight these industries... Justice or remedy is difficult and rare to come by. Even the EPA has it's hands tied. If you were ever under the impression that the meat industry plays a fair game to either the animals it butchers or the consumers who are also their neighbors AND hard workers... You are mistaken.

          I'd be happy to provide more info if needed. Thanks for keeping an open mind willing to question.

          August 9, 2013 at 11:41 pm |
    • sam stone

      vegans force their views on others?

      meat eaters (and meat sellers) do not?

      August 9, 2013 at 9:36 am |
  27. Liberals are too funny...

    Slaughter a calf for food and the far left gets their panties in a twist.
    The premeditated murder of a baby though is a "choice" though...Libs and the party of hate are pretty funny sometimes.

    August 8, 2013 at 2:52 pm |

      "Libs and the party of hate...?" You just said Libs and the Republican party," and essentially rendered your statement into nonsense. Party of Hate = Republican Party. Even a retarded Palin child knows that.

      August 8, 2013 at 2:58 pm |
      • sam stone

        i disagree. liberalism and a conservatism are both ideological leanings. not all liberals nor all conservatives think the same thing, nor have they come to their own positions in the same way. there are haters on both sides. i think that the parties benefit from a bunker mentality (us versus them), and a distaste for the center

        August 9, 2013 at 9:55 am |
    • marctwine

      ...ummm...what in the WORLD does this have to do with "Eatocracy" & nutrition & ethical animal treatment??

      Agendas?? No wonder I try to absent myself from social media !!

      August 8, 2013 at 3:23 pm |
    • usam

      It's got nothing to do with conservative or liberal. It's a compassion toward other being. By the way our family is hard core republicans and we are vegans.

      August 8, 2013 at 5:16 pm |
    • Jas104

      You see, this is the reason CNN needs to implement the voting system across all of its article comments, so that ignorant straw-man comments like "Liberals are too funny" made are kept at the bottom where they belong.

      August 8, 2013 at 9:55 pm |
    • sam stone

      you and the far right people who follow your verbal diarrhea are imbeciles.

      i am a conservative, and a long time vegetarian

      we do not all think the same. either coservatives or vegetarias/vegans

      as far as the pre-meditated murder of a baby, here's what you do......

      run as fast as you can to the local police station to report a murder of a baby, and then tell them it was during a "medical procedure" and see how far that gets you.

      abortion is legal in this country, and i do not see any indication that it will ever not be legal

      go fvck yourself

      August 9, 2013 at 9:44 am |
  28. mattk

    I'm Italian so I grew up eating veal, thus it doesn't bother me.
    Killing an animal is not aesthetically pleasing to watch but I am not ignorant of that; I just don't care.
    I have always said "veal is the most cruel and delicious of the red meats"

    August 8, 2013 at 2:20 pm |
    • Modra

      Congrats, you win an award for dumb-f**k post of the day.

      August 8, 2013 at 10:53 pm |
  29. Ellen

    I know exactly why I don't eat veal. I love veal. One of my mother's signature dishes was made with veal. But slaughtering "children," whether cow, sheep, fowl, or otherwise, just doesn't work its way into my value system.

    August 8, 2013 at 2:19 pm |
    • Angelica Paganelli

      Do you eat eggs?

      August 8, 2013 at 4:58 pm |
      • dewzy

        an egg is not a baby until it hatches and becomes a chick

        August 9, 2013 at 1:47 am |
        • Provoked

          True... Do you know what the industry does to the unwanted, "unproductive" male chicks?

          August 9, 2013 at 9:00 am |
  30. Truth™

    I have a friend who is militantly vegan. One day we were talking and the subject of veal came up. I told her that I was planning it that very night for dinner. She about blew a gasket telling me how it is cruel, how it is wrong and how it is completely immoral. After listen to her rant, I told her "No, it is ok. I got it on sale"...

    August 8, 2013 at 1:57 pm |
    • Provoked

      And so the only thing you proved to her and to us is that you have no ethical argument. Jokes and laughter are most often used to mask inadequacy. We chuckled... Now move on.

      August 8, 2013 at 2:45 pm |
      • YummmmMeat

        blah...blah...blah...but it tasts so good with some BBQ sauce on it!

        August 9, 2013 at 2:16 pm |
  31. El Flaco

    Veal pens are torture chambers.

    I have read that dogs are sometimes tortured with blow-torches before being slaughtered because of the belief that it makes the meat tastier.

    People who eat veal will surely go to hell.

    August 8, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • marctwine

      ...Puleeze..."I have read...", REALLY? And where, exactly, in the USA can you find dog on the supermarket shelves??
      Meaningless, mindless provocation.

      August 8, 2013 at 1:48 pm |
      • Provoked

        I'm certain you would not call yourself a racist, or a bigot, or a sexist... Why then do you distinguish between the worth of a dog but not a pig... But not a calf? By what standards do you discriminate? We all appear to be in a trapped mind of speciesism – What honestly is the difference between a cat a chicken? Nothing meaningful only what we ascribe to be important. And of course we justify it through the lens of our own desires. It's indoctrinated nonsense – All of it is arbitrary and the arguments of why one deserves kindness and the others deserve to be killed reeks of moral dissonance. I love dogs... But there lives have no more meaning or value than a calf.

        August 8, 2013 at 2:43 pm |
        • marctwine

, Sir, offend me. Don't care, really.

          BTW, it"s "their", not "there". And don't give me that "typo" crapola.

          Not worth the conversation. Left-coast education. (But that, in and of itself is an oxymoron).

          August 8, 2013 at 3:44 pm |
        • Provoked

          I saw it. Unfortunately there is no option to edit on eatocracy. You've got your coasts wrong though... I "learnt" my "gramma" from the northeast. ;)

          So sorry though that you couldn't address any of my points that were still understood nonetheless, and that you instead, had to resort to a strawman, ad hominem counter-blow. But I do understand that's what's done for lack of a rational rebuttal. Cheers and peace on your journey. ;)

          August 8, 2013 at 7:02 pm |
  32. georgilynn6

    Veal is way too expensive, I paid $24.98 a lb for it last week, no meat is worth that!

    August 8, 2013 at 12:25 pm |
    • Jdizzle McHammerpants ♫♫

      So why did you buy it?

      August 8, 2013 at 12:29 pm |
    • marctwine

      ...ummm...Wagyu (Japanese beef) is available on-line @ $45 for 6 oz. of filet.

      'spensive? Yeah. But it's their money.

      I still have a problem with ground chuck @ $2.99/lb.

      August 8, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
  33. Jdizzle McHammerpants ♫♫

    I grow a tomato plant in my closet. I talk down to it constantly and beat it on a regular basis. No one says a word to me about it.

    August 8, 2013 at 11:54 am |
    • randoid1234

      Everybody knows that tomato plants barely count as plants. They're more like sub-plants.

      August 8, 2013 at 12:41 pm |
  34. YummmmMeat

    Baby cows taste good! Eat all that you can!

    August 8, 2013 at 8:18 am |
  35. KieranH

    No beef with veal....delicious young cow.........

    August 8, 2013 at 7:27 am |
  36. john

    its inhuman when killing and animals when they are not in the right age,,,yes we are looking for a better food in our plate but we should realized we are just like them,we human we are more intelligent than animals we should consider their rights to live even in a short time of age....

    August 8, 2013 at 4:51 am |
    • crazyvermont tell me again what the difference is between slaughtering a young calf or feedlot steer? Doubt that calves realize their age and despite their age, they eventually both end up on our plates.

      August 8, 2013 at 8:47 am |
    • Ant928

      Oh shut up and go back to your granola and alfalfa sprouts ya tree hugging hippie!

      August 8, 2013 at 10:43 am |
      • Provoked

        Gee what a reactive response. Too bad it doesn't address any issues. Too bad you lack an argument credible enough so as to not have to resort to ad hominem attacks. Too bad you don't recognize empathy as a virtue or compassion as a worthy goal for a civilized society. I have a friend who often says of folks who speak as you do: Get the meat out of your ears and you might learn something. Cheers! ;)

        August 8, 2013 at 11:22 am |
        • Jdizzle McHammerpants ♫♫

          Remove the cucumber, dude.

          August 8, 2013 at 11:39 am |
      • wildbunny

        educate yourself so you don't sound like a dufas who is here just to name call labels

        August 8, 2013 at 2:39 pm |
        • randoid1234

          1. doofus
          2. Your sentence makes it look like someone is insulting labels.

          August 8, 2013 at 3:36 pm |
  37. Krandal

    This is a vealy long article,

    August 7, 2013 at 10:11 pm |
    • You're Punny


      August 8, 2013 at 7:35 am |
  38. gwtw1939

    I grew up on a family farm and we raised beef with the occasional sheep. My dad, who made a living out of raising animals humanely (on Christmas everybody got a little extra, etc.), won't touch veal and brought us up that way. I have had veal (the most scrumptious time by accident in a foreign country) and think it's tasty but as a rule don't order it and have brought MY children up that way. The idea of pasture-raised veal is lovely and I hope it catches on. Having been involved in every part of raising a steak, from birth to death, the idea of a happy young bovine kicking his heels in the pasture does my heart good. I have no problem with the age of the meat, but no animal such as this should be raised in a box. I wish there was some official designation so I could feel comfortable ordering veal at a restaurant, esp. since I can't ever see myself cooking it at home.

    August 7, 2013 at 9:11 pm |
    • marctwine seems the underlying issue here is CRUELTY. And, in general, I applaud your father's stance. To survive, we'll kill SOMETHING, but doing it in a brutal fashion is anathema to me. Truthfully I've lost my appetite, now. But it will return tomorrow with both animals, vegetables and fruits on the menu. And so it goes...

      August 8, 2013 at 12:35 pm |
      • Provoked

        Hi... I was wondering and have been for quite sometime – How does one compartmentalize those things that he finds ethically troubling? I often wonder that as I try to find a garment that's not made in a sweat shop... I suppose I too could just shrug my shoulders and not worry about the 8 year old behind a sewing machine. I could patronize places that I know treat their workers unjustly... I could not care about innocent drone victims... I could... But I can't and don't. Just wondering if you had any tips on how not to care about important things that involve injustice to others? Thanks.

        August 8, 2013 at 2:38 pm |
  39. EmmaNoah

    Let's not forget about baby carrots. Why not let them grow up to be big carrots?

    August 7, 2013 at 4:54 pm |
    • Thomas

      Baby carrots are made from big carrots - so this is a non-issue.

      August 7, 2013 at 5:06 pm |
      • Bill

        So you have no problem mutilating a carrot? Life feeds on life. The life of a cow is no more or less valuable than the life of a carrot. And if you don't think that plants don't struggle to survive, you should go into the woods someday and see how young trees will try and move their trunks around to untangle themselves from the vines that are choking them to death.

        August 7, 2013 at 5:22 pm |
        • Thomas

          Bill - if it's that simple, then I guess cannibalism is okay, because it's the same as eating a carrot. I'd like to think you're joking but I have this hunch that you're trying to make a serious argument.

          August 7, 2013 at 5:39 pm |
        • Hannibal Lecter

          Cannibalism is ok, people. Trust me.

          August 7, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
  40. ug

    Eat all the meat you want and pissoff a lib...

    August 7, 2013 at 3:25 pm |
    • gu

      live a long, healthy, happy life and piss off a con...

      August 8, 2013 at 3:11 pm |
  41. Nicky Santoro

    I fly stuff in fresh every day. I get bread from back home, I get fish from California, and you can always tell a great kitchen like ours 'cause of the milk-fed veal. That's the secret. See milk-fed veal is pure white. Out here, they got that pink veal. Slide over, honey. Now pink veal, you can pound that [stuff] for two days, and it'll never ever get tender, you know what I mean?

    August 7, 2013 at 2:22 pm |
    • Repugnant 1

      I dunno, man...whenever I've pounded my 'pink veal' for two days, it feels pretty tender afterward and I have to lay off it for a couple days.

      August 7, 2013 at 2:30 pm |
    • Violet

      Leave it to a true anonymous Internet asshole to take an intelligent conversation about an important topic and turn it into a not clever dick joke. 'Murica.

      August 7, 2013 at 3:24 pm |
      • Sigmund Freud

        ^ penis envy ^

        August 7, 2013 at 7:36 pm |
  42. SteveoS

    I read somewhere that scientists were able to link animal protein consumed by early humans led to the evolution of the brain resulting in humans today. This could not have been achieved without animal consumption. So the arguments on this board about how humans don't need animal meat is wrong according to this logic.
    Now for this article – the treatment of these animals is just outright wrong. I personally don't eat veal because of the whole idea of eating a baby calf isn't very appealing, but if you don't mind then all the power to you. I hunt but don't shoot baby elk, deer, bear, etc. Same thought applies to's not for me.

    August 7, 2013 at 1:32 pm |
    • carmela

      Have you ever seen or read how any animal raised for slaughter is housed and treated? Sometimes much worse that what you just read.

      August 7, 2013 at 3:01 pm |
      • SixDegrees

        The techniques outlined in the article, practiced by Webb, actually sound pretty reasonable.

        August 7, 2013 at 3:07 pm |
        • Provoked

          Would you feel this way if you were the mother cow and your baby was stolen from you? Would you feel this way if you were the calf just who has barely seen a change of season and was about to have a bolt gunned through your brain? Empathy is an eye-opener. Extending our circle of compassion can only make the world a better place. ;)

          August 7, 2013 at 3:21 pm |
        • SixDegrees

          "Would you feel this way if you were the mother cow and your baby was stolen from you? Would you feel this way if you were the calf just who has barely seen a change of season and was about to have a bolt gunned through your brain? "

          Yes, I would feel exactly the same way under those precise circumstances.

          For someone who blathers on and on about others being "emotional" and "irrational", you certainly aren't much of a model of coherent, rational thought. Project, much?

          August 7, 2013 at 4:17 pm |
        • Provoked

          It's called empathy. It's a quality of evolved intelligence. Brutes and thugs usually lack it. The want of it leads people to mob-rule and unspeakable genocides. Empathy: 1. Empathy is the capacity to recognize emotions that are being experienced by another sentient or fictional being. (Webster on line).

          I feel absolutely no shame in being compassionate... "It’s a matter of taking the side of the weak against the strong, something the best people have always done." ~Harriet Beecher Stowe

          August 7, 2013 at 7:34 pm |
        • randoid1234

          So meat eaters are brutes and thugs that lack empathy and cause genocides? It must pain you to no end then that HItler was a vegetarian.

          August 8, 2013 at 10:59 am |
  43. Fruitless

    I'm establishing a new organization, the "Plant Liberation Front" (PLF) to protest the cruel manner in which we farm, harvest and consume plant life. Yes, plant LIFE! Plants are a living creature. Do we know anything about whether plants have thoughts or feelings? I think not. Is not all life sacred? How can we call ourselves humane when we confine plants to greenhouses, cut them down in the peak of their miserable lives, and then consume these poor, helpless plants?

    I, for one, intend to stop consuming anything with DNA, and I swear to never terminate another living creature, so long as I live.

    Get real, people!!!

    Animals live, animals die, on a one-to-one ratio, whether humans are involved or not. Humans have eaten meat ever since they could catch it. Superimposing our own anthropomorphic emotions onto animals is no reason to end the cultivation of meat as a food source.

    Get over yourselves!

    August 7, 2013 at 12:45 pm |
    • M3NTA7

      Did you read the article? The 'beef' is about how animals are treated, not whether or not to eat them.

      August 7, 2013 at 12:50 pm |
    • SixDegrees

      Few here, apart from the lunatic fringe, are suggesting an end to meat consumption. I have no problem eating meat. But allowing animals to undergo needless or deliberate suffering says something about us, and what it says is not at all pleasant.

      There is every reason to ensure that the animals we eat – particularly those whose very existence relies on us to supply their every need – are treated as humanely as possible. Condoning or ignoring needless brutalization of animals robs us of a degree of our own humanity.

      August 7, 2013 at 1:00 pm |
    • usam

      You are so selfish, you don't think of the pain and suffer of the animals that you raised in a tiny box then skin them alive. What if you are that animal, what would you say then.
      Hitler was a selfish person, he didn't feel the pain and suffering of the Jews, that was the main reason he did what he did to the Jews. Do you want to be a Jew in one of those concentration camp?

      August 7, 2013 at 1:06 pm |
      • Bill

        Usam: You should apologize to Jews and to Fruitless. To link meat eaters to Hilter and the Holocaust is in extreme poor taste. Killing an animal for food is in no way on the same level as systematically trying to exterminate an entire race.

        August 7, 2013 at 1:25 pm |
        • Provoked

          The word "holocaust" is defined as "destruction or slaughter on a mass scale." In modern times, the word is applied most often to the plight of European Jews at the hands of Hitler, but the word was not invented for this event. There have been many holocausts before and after, many on a larger scale. Even so, to compare the slaughter of non-human animals to the slaughter of humans is not to degrade the deaths of humans but to dignify the deaths of nonhumans. ~Don Piraro

          August 7, 2013 at 7:56 pm |
        • usam

          think whatever you want to think, i use it to make a point, if you don't get it that's your problem. The point is selfish people do not care about other and remember " DON'T DO UNTO OTHERS WHAT YOU DON'T WANT OTHERS DO UNTO YOU ".

          August 7, 2013 at 8:58 pm |
      • Mancee Graice

        I would be honored, so long as I knew my flesh would be enjoyed as much as I enjoy bacon.

        August 7, 2013 at 2:57 pm |
      • Tony

        We are talking about animals bred by humans specifically to be eaten. Sure, I don't think we need to torture them while they're alive but make no mistake: these animals are bred to die.

        August 7, 2013 at 3:49 pm |
        • Provoked

          Hi Tony – I believe that's a circular argument. Just because humans breed a certain being in order to exploit them doesn't validate the exploitation. It just means we've used more might to obtain our end goal. It doesn't point to any ethical justification at all! Simply because a mugger can over power me doesn't mean he's justified in doing so. And if you're going to say "they're just animals"... Violence is the same if the victims have 2 legs or 4.

          August 7, 2013 at 7:53 pm |
        • usam

          it doesn't matter how or why they got here. They have the same feeling as we do, they are feeling pain when being beaten or tortured, terrifying when they being dragged to the slaughtered house. They love their babies, happy and sad just like human. The only problem is that they couldn't communicate with us.

          August 7, 2013 at 9:11 pm |
    • Thomas

      Animals do not live and die the same regardless of human intervention. More than 150 billion animals are slaughtered worldwide every year. Did these animals come about from some natural cycle of life and death? No! These animals were manufactured by humans, often in a perverted way. It's both the treatment of the animals and the scale of production and slaughter that we should find disgusting if we had any divine sense about us at all.

      Charles Darwin, on observing the grotesque survival means of a parasitic wasp which eats its host from the inside out, was quoted as saying, "I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created parasitic wasps with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars." Darwin could have just as easily made the same comment or worse about humans who remove baby cattle from their mothers at birth, force-feed them a laboratory drink concoction, and confine them to a one-by-four foot box for their entire life, before slaughtering them to feast on their soft, delicate baby flesh.

      August 7, 2013 at 1:29 pm |
      • Provoked

        Thomas – Thank you for such a profound and meaningful observation. You are a wise one. ;)

        August 7, 2013 at 1:56 pm |
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