Does 4-H desensitize kids to killing?
June 23rd, 2011
11:00 AM ET
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What do farmers have to say about agriculture issues? Hear it straight from them in Farmers With Issues.

4-H stands for "Head, heart, hands, health" and apparently a fifth - for "haters."

To many, 4-H Clubs are all about nurturing sweet little calves, adorable children winning ribbons, urban garden patches and proud future farmers grooming prized pigs for show. To others, it's a calculated system for turning the youth of America into cold, unfeeling animal killers.

When Eatocracy ran a 5@5 feature with chef Kelly Liken on the topic of Five Reasons to Buy from Your Local 4-H earlier this week, we quickly identified within the comments two distinct perceptions of the organization - which was originally set up by the United States Department of Agriculture to train the rural youth of America in hands-on skills like agriculture and raising animals. One was that 4-H promotes responsible animal husbandry and the cultivation of food resources in a responsible, ethical way and the other was that it serves to desensitize children to the suffering of animals.

Here's what commenters to that article had to say:

In cold blood

I don't and would never support the 4-H. This group helps desensitize youngsters into having no emotional attachment to animals raised for food. For those who say no one should have attachment to animals raised for food, I say "of course". This is how the meat industry stays in business. If children are raised to love all animals and not try to see them as products, they would not be interested in seeing them killed. "Listening to the auctioneer and seeing how excited the children get when their animal is purchased is an incredibly fulfilling experience."

Really? Incredibly fulfilling experience. You mean knowing the animal that trusted you from birth is off to be mistreated before being slaughtered! That's fulfilling? Maybe that's because the 4-H has successfully desensitized these children who may have once be appalled by this. It's simply horrific. Shame on you 4-H for what you do to animals and to children. - Heather King

Education, not desensitization

What 4-H does do is promote responsible animal husbandry and the cultivation of food resources in a responsible, ethical way. I accept your position that any killing of animals for food is, in your position, not ethical or moral, however most of us are omnivores and I for one would rather that those producing the meat I choose to eat do so in a humane and ethical way. I respect your position, but I would also hope that you would rather see people brought up to understand, and therefore demand, that there an ethical way to treat an animal even if that animal's eventual purpose is the nourishment of a human being.

Desensitization is the wrong word–education is the right word. These kids (I was one) are not at all desensitized to the process–rather, they are educated about proper raising and care of these animals. Not only was I a member, but growing up we also purchased meat and produce from 4H and FFA members–talk about locally sourced! We could be confident in the quality, origin, and raising of these products in a way we can rarely be in a supermarket. - Value rather than desensitization

A lasting impact

Have you ever been at a 4-H auction? Most of the younger kids end up crying after their animal gets bought and not donated back. As they grow older, they wrap their head around the idea, but when they're first starting out they have a hard time accepting it. It doesn't mean they're "desensitized" to it, it's the fact they they've matured and understand that animal's purpose more as time goes on. - Brianna

The circle of life

Someone asked earlier in the thread how many 4-H kids had actually seen an animal slaughtered. In my club back home (rural Sierra Nevadas), the answer was ALL OF US. We toured the packing houses where our animals would later be slaughtered (note packing HOUSES, as these buildings housed perhaps thirty head at an outside estimate, nowhere near large enough to call a "processing plant"), examined carcasses, viewed the taking of animals lives and the bloodletting afterwards, and were given briefings on the saws and tools used. This while spending hours a day bathing, training, feeding and cleaning up after our own still very alive animals. - 4-H fo'sho'

The value of life

It is really so unevolved. Why are people proud that the kids are crying as they lead their animals onto the trailer to be killed for food? You are teaching them that relationships are disposable. That animals are disposable. NOT A GOOD LESSON, and these poor animals raised as pets are off to the slaughterhouse where they will be tortured before they die. - Kathy

It keeps them off the streets

Small scale food-animal raisers aren't cold blooded killers, they're making money doing what they enjoy doing. If anyone is desensitized to animal life, go to Youngstown [ed: where the commenter grew up] and talk to all the thugs on the street that grew up around murders happening weekly. THEN you'll find someone who doesn't value human or animal life.

If I have kids, you bet they'll be in 4-H. I'd rather see them doing that than doing what most of the people I grew up with did. Kids deserve more of a chance than what drugs, crime and partying can offer them. - Brianna

It should be noted that animal husbandry and sales are only a portion of what 4-H Clubs do. Other former members spoke of "arts and crafts like pottery, painting; outdoor activities like camping, canoeing, kayaking, rock climbing, and...skills like woodworking and leather-working" as well as horse showing and "cooking, photography, jewelry making" and others. Still, with the issue of animal raising and slaughter on the table, we'd like to know what you think in the comments below.

Previously - A day two pigs would die: ethical slaughter

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Filed under: Animal Rights • Buzz • Farmers with Issues • Food Politics • From the Comments • Local Food • Vegan

soundoff (1,645 Responses)
  1. Cow Patty

    I just farted on a Vegan,She is turning green. I think she is dead. +1 for Cows–Eat More Chiken.

    June 26, 2011 at 11:32 am |
  2. Tammy

    Both of my sons are in 4-H, and I am an advisor. I will be the first to admit that yes, you do get attached. Last year as I went with my son to take his market rabbits to the processor truck, I cried. This year I watched a little girl cry and pet her steer as it was being driven away in the processor's trailer. It sucks and it hurts a person's heart.

    But we are omnivores. We eat meat. My family even processes some of it's own rabbits and we buy a cow from a local farmer. My sons are taught that before you can eat an animal, you must have respected that animal's sacrifice. You must treat that animal with the utmost respect and care, because it is giving its life to you.

    I teach my 4-H kids to be very respectful of the life they are responsible for (in their market animals). They realize that these animals are giving up their lives to feed another. Our animals are treated very humanely by our 4-H members. In fact, animals were injured at our fair this week. Not by 4-H members or FFA members, but by people who called us "ignorant hicks." I don't think that it is those of us there with projects who are the ignorant ones.

    Some of you need to realize that a market animal is not treated like a pet. I certainly wouldn't let a steer sleep in my bed in the same way that I let my boxer sleep in my bed! Pets are pampered. Market animals are groomed, fed, kept in clean and safe environments and prepared for harvest.

    It is your responsibility to know where your food comes from. You buy your food at the grocery store, but it doesn't come from there. Someone grew it, or raised it and processed it. Chances are, that someone isn't a member of a factory farm. Respect and get to know your local farmers. We aren't cold blooded killers and we aren't raising our children to be that way. We are raising them to be responsible, educated and caring members of the society and guardians of this earth. 4-H is a major help to us. It is your ignorance that is showing when you denounce this program without having ever experienced it.

    June 26, 2011 at 2:07 am |
  3. Maeve

    This is really disappointing since I'm a 4-her and have just raised animal for fair you do get attached to the animals you raise and it is hard to see them go

    June 26, 2011 at 1:10 am |
  4. Not all Agriculture

    I am a current and 8 year 4-H member. One thing I cannot stand is that with the exception of the small section at the bottom, this article makes it seem like all that we learn in 4-H is about the Agriculture industry! For all of the parents saying "I will never enroll my child in 4-H" please know that there is SO much more to this amazing program ! yes, I do show animals, but I show them through FFA. My main 4-H project is leadership and I have been able to educate over 2,500 kids about the dangers of drug, alcohol, and tobacco abuse through a program called "Health Rocks!" Being in 4-H has changed my life in ways that no other organization could have.

    June 26, 2011 at 12:08 am |
  5. Live,Laugh,Love...

    I'm an actual 4-H member....I show pigs & goats and I do not raise them to slaughter them.....They are not just animals they are MY PETS!!! And I know that god put them on this earth for food... What do you think Bacon,Steak,& Pork Chops that you buy from the grocery store comes from?? Just going to say that 4-H is an awesome club that children can be apart of and have fun!!! I love 4-H!

    June 26, 2011 at 12:07 am |
  6. 4-H Member

    Dear CNN,
    Get your facts straight!
    Go talk to National 4-H Headquarters inside the United States Department of Agriculture in Washington DC. We are a program that is STILL run by the USDA!
    FOCUS ON THE GOOD OF 4-H and not just about the slaughtering of animals!

    June 25, 2011 at 11:36 pm |
  7. bob

    Some people need to learn where food comes from!!! The fresh meat in plastic does not come from the back of walmart!!!! 4-h'ers = VERY good cared for livestock = responsibility = slaughtering = fresh juicy meat!!! Circal of life!!!! What do you want us to do with all the animals in the usa?!?! Because letting them all run lose is not an option! ! Get your facts stright!!! Please do some research first. You are picking the a fight with the wrong group!

    June 25, 2011 at 10:49 pm |
  8. Robby

    Here is what I think about the whole thing. I was in a 4-H program and I am now a 4-H leader. I just earned my B.S. of Animal Science and live on a farm and raise show pigs and Boer goats that I show all across the mid-west. 4-H gave me the chance to learn about where food came from and how to properly take care of animals. These animals get some of the best care, always spend money on the best feed and best products for them! It also teaches children and members many other factors in life how to be responsible for what they are doing and teaching them life lessons! It has currently lead me to my current career path working with animals doing what I love, caring for them. But livestock have a purpose on earth, FOOD! If God didn't want us to eat meat then the livestock would not be here.

    June 25, 2011 at 10:09 pm |
  9. Chris

    I wonder how many of these people who are defending food animals support abortion? Most of the ones I know do. What a bunch of hypocrites.

    June 25, 2011 at 7:03 pm |
  10. Jill

    I think all of you need to ask yourself why you are so opposed to an organization that teaches responsiblity (i.e. taking a project and finishing it), manners (community service projects) and loyalty (the pledge to the US and 4-H flag is said at every meeting). 4-H is not about killing animals, it is about building better leaders for tomorrow. If you are a vegan and oppose the slaughtering of animals, please find another outlet for publicity. Trashing a worthy organization just to raise some publicity for your campaign is selfish.

    June 25, 2011 at 5:49 pm |
  11. Vet to Be

    First, I would just like to ask everyone to think through their responses before posting. Name-calling or bashing others beliefs is no way to win or even solve an argument. That being said I would like to state that I am a former 4-H member and meat eater and thanks to all of my 4-H and FFA training (I was a state officer) I have made it into vet school and plan to either be a food animal practitioner or work in food safety. I don’t know that I ever would have made it this far if it weren’t for both of the previously listed organizations. As a child in 4-H, I raised both market hogs and market steers. I also participated on the cattle working team and livestock judging team, as well as Home-Ec type baking, arts, crafts and sewing. Through 4-H, I learned work ethic, something not commonly seen in children not involved in extracurricular activities. The animals I raised were sold for food at our auction, and I even ate some of them. This is not to say that I was DESENSITIZED, if that were the case I would be numb and devoid of all feelings about where my animals were headed when I put them on the trailer. No, in fact I knew exactly where my animals were going as I had seen the facilities and knew the process from stunning the animals into an unconscious state with either captive bolt guns or electric shock (both a very quick process) to exsanguinations to the actual steaks being cut on the ban saw. Knowing that my animals would eventually be eaten by someone, hopefully appreciative of where they came from, was well worth raising them, not to mention the experience I gained. As far as emotional attachment goes, I only cried over one animal in my entire 4-H career. This was because we were taught to view our animals as a FOOD project, not as pets. The one animal I did treat as a pet was my first steer, Smokey. He was born on our farm from the cow my dad gave me when I was six. I raised him, trained him to lead and set his feet like a champ. I even got to the point that I could ride him. At the fair, he surprised us all by winning Grand Champion and selling for $4.00/lb at 1225 lbs. Needless to say that night, I sat by him balling. Our fair staff is awesome in that they load the animals at night, so we won’t have to walk them to the trailer, then they take the halters and put them away for us. Thus, the next morning, I came in and Smokey was gone and that’s when I knew that he would be the best tasting steak ever, simply because he was amazing at everything. However, from that point on my steers were names T-bone, Porter(house), and Hamburger to help keep it all in perspective. As I mentioned above, my animals sold for a fair amount and the money I earned from my projects went into a college fund. Additionally, with this record-keeping, money management, animal husbandry skils, motivation and determination taught by 4-H and FFA, I was able to apply for and receive many scholarships helping to pay for my entire undergraduate college career. I am now in Veterinary school and continue to show my respect for animals as I know they have their purpose in life, whether it be breeding seedstock, dairy production, meat, etc. In my class of veterinary students there are some vegetarians and one vegan (even though he buys meat for his dog to eat), and I respect their decision. One doesn’t like the texture of meat, one can’t eat it because of certain GI implications, and one just doesn’t want to eat it. The one that is a closet meat eater, kind of bothers me, but only because of the bashing I received for eating meat. Needless to say the day I caught him in a restaurant eating a bacon cheeseburger, ended all bashing from his end. It is free choice, it is not wrong to eat meat after all in Mark 7:17-23, Jesus declared all food clean. That being said it is still a nutrient dense food and the comparison of a 3oz daily serving of meat is still more economical that buying the needed amount of spinach (which has also led to E. coli) to provide equal nutrition. I am a firm supporter of 4-H and FFA, and would like to share my storing with CNN and all those commenting on the article.

    June 25, 2011 at 2:42 pm |
  12. Anita

    To answer the question, no, 4-H does not desensitize kids to killing. I was one of those 4-H members who raised meat animals for the fair. I treated them with TLC, just as all farmers I know treat their animals. I always cried when I sold my animals, but nobody told me I had to sell them. We later visited them in the slaughterhouse, hanging in the freezer. It's the circle of life. I've seen animals slaughtered, and every slaughterhouse I've been to does it humanely. I don't like watching, but I have watched. The animal is guided into position and killed instantly–no torture, no pain, no reluctance because the animal "knows what's coming." These animals were treated humanely and with compassion all their lives, and when their life was ended, it was done with compassion so humans can eat. People like having a cause, so they rally against farmers and make up stories about torture so they can feel good about what they're doing. Livestock abuse would be horrible–if it happened–but it does not happen at any of the many farms I have visited. I’ve been allowed to wander freely and take photos freely. It's interesting how people who know nothing about 4-H–or farming–can condemn those of us who do. Next time, write about something you know something about. If kids are desensitized to killing, it's because of the dozens of killing scenes they see on TV every week.

    June 25, 2011 at 2:30 pm |
  13. Kaki

    Anyone who truly believes that 4H teaches children to hate doesn't know anything about it. That is not only moronic but naive. I have nieces that have raised pigs to show, sell, and eat in 4H. These girls love those pigs. They spoil them, give them attention and adore them. How is that considered insensitive? Yes, they do understand that the pigs will be slaughtered to eat. That my friends is called the circle of life. I consider it much better than growing up not knowing where your meat comes from. I once had neighbors who had a foster child from NY. She was so thoroughly disgusted when she found out where meat came from and refused to eat any form of meat again. It astounded me that she didn't know where it came from considering she was 15 years old! What kind of idiots seriously believe that 4 H teaches kids to hate and not value life. In fact, these kids probably have much higher personal values than most other kids.

    June 25, 2011 at 2:29 pm |
  14. Ellizabeth

    I'm in 4-H.
    I show dairy cows, no we don't "sell" them for beef.
    I've seen cows shipped off for beef, (not the show cows) yes I cry. Its our emotions and we can not control them.
    You basically state in this awful story that kids can control there emotions. Hmm?
    In the paragraph "To many, 4-H Clubs are all about nurturing sweet little calves, adorable children winning ribbons, urban garden patches and proud future farmers grooming prized pigs for show...." Yes, its what 4-H is about. Being proud of all the hard work you put into a project.
    and saying that we are "cooled blooded unemotional animal killers is completely wrong.
    Whatever City Slicker wrote this saying that how we don't care about an animal being killed should get there facts in order.
    because clearly they have no idea what there talking about.
    CNN. You fail me again.

    June 25, 2011 at 2:20 pm |
  15. Vaarok

    I find it horrifyingly offensive that through the hard work of myself and other farmers, and through technologies developed over thousands of years to accommodate the needs of a ever-growing populace, so many people have been able to grow so distanced from where their food comes from, and have such luxury that they can make shallow political statements out of a vital necessity of life- namely, their food.

    June 25, 2011 at 11:37 am |
  16. Heather in SoCal

    Sorry, but if God didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made 'em out of MEAT. Keep your self-righteous vegetarian religion to yourselves.

    June 25, 2011 at 11:22 am |
    • KP

      >accusing someone of pushing religion on someone in the same sentence as telling me what "god" put me here for
      Please use a little bit of metacognition and try to realize when you are being a hypocrite BEFORE you hit post.

      However, to argue your actual point, we're made of meat too. Why isn't cannibalism okay?

      June 26, 2011 at 2:40 am |
  17. Evolved

    I haven't eaten animal flesh in many years. Why would I?

    June 25, 2011 at 10:04 am |
  18. TJ

    "those of you who are considering yourselves "sentitized" to the killing of animals" (correction)

    June 25, 2011 at 8:05 am |
  19. TJ

    While we are hanging all these 4-H clubs out to dry, we should put farmers and their families on the chopping block. I was not in an animal husbandry 4-H club, but oh dear... I was the daughter of a small family farmer, who raised pigs and cows to feed our family. You know what? I remember their names. Yes. The food we eat once had a name. Bossy, Sukey, Whiskers, Squealer, Willber, ... all the old favorites. My dad tried naming one of the cows "T-Bone" to help him remember the end goal – but it didn't work – T-Bone was his favorite. Dad would sit in the pasture on a rock, just because he knew T-Bone would saunter up behind him and gently bump him off the rock, trying to use him like he was a scratching post. And... while all we little girls would go off for the day when Dad's friends would come over and help him out with difficult task of butchering his animals – I know that he was torn to pieces inside each time he did it.

    Think about it this way, those of you who are considering yourselves "desentisized to the killing of animals... Which would be worse – to turn our heads, close our eyes and walk blissfully down our grocery store aisles of prepackaged animal parts – while cows and other livestock are mistreated on slaughterfarms and houses... or to raise these animals, on your own property, in your own yard – giving them love, kindness and respect as they live on family farms where children are also being raised – to love, respect and honor the animals that will eventually nourish their own families one day?

    June 25, 2011 at 8:04 am |
  20. KP

    Beefburger: So... your argument is that you are not gifted with higher reasoning and the ability to choose but rather have the intelligence of an amoeba and exist on instinct alone and all humans should be like you? Tell me, do you have the self-control to choose what you hump? If so, you should realize that means that you choose what you eat too. If you wanna eat meat, whatever, but don't blame biology when you have a mind to work with and it is your CONSCIOUS CHOICE for animals to die for your menu. Lions on the Savanna don't have that luxury now do they? And what in the name of Abe Vigoda does the concept of a "soul" have to do with anything? I don't believe souls exist, in humans or animals, and I don't give a flying rat's butt if you do or not, that has nothing to do with the fact that everything has a right to live. Honestly, I can't tell if you're trolling or if you really are such a neanderthal. I don't dislike meat-eaters... but I get the feeling if I ever met you I'd probably dislike *you*, and it has nothing to do with your diet.

    See, 'cause you're a jerk, that's what I was going for there. Just in case you didn't get that.

    June 25, 2011 at 5:16 am |
  21. Beefburger

    BTW, if you do NOT think that the chickens and the pigs, or humans for that matter, have souls. Then the argument is rather pointless from the beginning is it not?

    June 25, 2011 at 4:05 am |
  22. Beefburger

    Unless everyone in the world is going to suddenly change to a granola knoshing hippie with Morrisey whining from every radio, then yes, animals will be killed for consumption. DEAL WITH IT.

    Do you think lions give a flip how a wildabeast feels when they are feasting on it? Unless we all suddenly evolve to creatures of pure energy we will continue to consume to survive.

    Has our society so devolved to think that animals have spirits? But wait, these same people refuse to believe in God, but yet they think a chicken or pig has a soul.

    In the same light we have placed ourselves as being equal to animals but yet superior to them at the same time. Ok, the next time I am on the losing end of the food chain I will ask the creature to please take pity on his fellow being as we are all the same under the fur and skin.

    My favorite bumper sticker: Vegetarian-Native American word for "poor hunter"

    Sorry Lady Gaga, meat dress aside, baby I, and BILLIONS of people, were born this way.

    Join my organization. PETA – People for the Eating of Tasty Animals or else let your eyes start to evolve to looking from the sides of your head, rather than the predators' front facing eyes. Let all of your teeth turn to cud chewers rather than have canine cuspids.

    It seems to me that CNN sees the world through some funny glasses, they seem to think that the majority of people want be married, gay, vegetarian, illegal immigrants with a substance abuse problem. You really need to stop hiring from the Hunter S. Thompson School of Journalism.

    June 25, 2011 at 3:59 am |
  23. KP

    As a vegetarian who won't even kill bugs, the heirarchy of dislike goes like this for me:

    Most disliked are the psychopaths that really don't care one bit about animal suffering and sacrifice. You know the type I mean... You show them pictures of the atrocities that go on in factory farming conditions and they laugh and say "Mmm, I could totally go for a bucket of extra crispy right now!" These are the types that hunt for sport and legitimately see nothing wrong with killing something just to turn its head into a decoration for your study. They're a step away from becoming sadistic murderers of human victims – lack of empathy spans species, you know.

    Next are the people who will gladly eat a hamburger but don't WANT to be reminded that it was once a living animal. This makes up the vast majority of our society. I think separation from your food source is MUCH more dangerous. Animals are not products.

    Next come organizations like this that teach that killing is just the way it should be. I don't think the idea is inherently bad, just the way it's presented. How about giving the kids options? This is as bad as sending them to Jesus camp – it's brainwashing. Do not get me wrong, I am a reasonably intelligent human being, not a banner waving MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY-er, and I am well aware that biologically speaking young children NEED to eat meat as their developing bodies need the protein and fat content. But when you join 4-H you don't stay that young. How about spending one season doing their animal nonsense and the next season cultivating soy and learning how they turn it into the vegetarian foods they make? You know, exploring OTHER lifestyle options rather than slaughtering for food? How about a lesson dedicated to learning about factory farms and why they are bad? 4-H has potential but the way it's set up now it does seem like they're desensitizing kids, not to the killing itself so much as the fact that that's just "how it is."

    The least disliked, in my opinion, are the hunters that kill for their own personal use and eat what they kill, and ideally make use of the rest of the animal as well. I support them.

    As you can see, there are worse things than 4-H. That's not to say it's anywhere NEAR great as it stands, but there are much worse things than kids learning about the sacrifice that goes into their food. In fact, I still say that unless you have personally killed your food animal, you should not be ALLOWED to eat it. If you can look something in the eye and still be able to take its life just because you want a nice tasty steak, then do it. Me... I'll make due with non-meat protein and be able to look at myself in the mirror with my head held high.

    June 25, 2011 at 2:48 am |
    • C A Garza

      KP – If you would read my previous comment up just a little higher than yours, then you will see that 4H and FFA are about so much more. Those with their negative comments are focusing on such a small portion of what these organizations are about, and their postings could not be further from the truth. FFA & 4H do exactly what you speak of in your comments. First off, many times they do have the option to send their animal projects to auction or to take them back home with them. They are not always sent to the chopping block, options are in place, ( we have kept several of the kids projects) secondly both 4H and FFA teach a well rounded education, just as you talk about. They learn how to grow productive organic gardens, and they can actually compete with their vegatable they grow, they learn about forestry, soil and plant conservation , foraging crops, and yes even about soy cultivation . In FFA, the schools actually have a wide variety of classes to choose from. There are many kids in FFA that will never raise an animal project, for various reasons. They may not have a place to raise it, they may have alergies that prohibit animal contact, etc. so there are many other avenues to participate. The classes teach them grain and plant identification and soil preparation among other useful tools, and they actually have judging competitions where they take the aquired classroom knowledge and compete against other schools. They also learn about the Dairy industry and how to improve the quality of milk production for human consumption. I know because my kids not only raised the livestock, which my husband and I still do today, but they were on Poultry judging teams. Grain identification teams. Debate teams, etc. Please, people, do not believe everything someone spills out of their mouths. Check the facts before you so quickly choose to throw it under the bus. As with any blog, there are some comments that just go off in the wrong direction. Whether a person chooses to be a vegatarian or a consumer of meat is irrelivant here. The facts just need to be accurate and from the beginning they have not been. Abundent Blessings.

      June 25, 2011 at 11:48 am |
      • KP

        Let me start by saying THANK YOU for a well-thought out, respectful response. You don't see nearly enough of that on the internet (even I got a little testy after Beefburger's unnecessarily aggressive post, and I apologize for that). Now then, I would like to say that I am THRILLED to hear that 4-H is branching out. I grew up in a tiny little farming town and 4-H was huge among the kids I went to school with, even though I was never personally a member. The 4-H I knew back then through those people with whom I attended school was much like I described in my post, and I had a friend who actually dropped out because she didn't wanna see her animals go to slaughter, so I don't know if they gave her an option or not. Our area was one of those be-like-everyone-else-or-be-ostricized kinds of small towns, and it seemed there was very little room for any opinion other than COWS=MEAT. MMM. Most of the 4-H members, however, did seem awfully callous about the animals THEY RAISED being slaughtered, to the point where I actually occasionally overheard them JOKING about it. None of them ever talked about anything but the raising of food animals, even though I had a feeling that they did do SOME other things. And I got a lot of the same comments from them that I have been reading on this article, such as "God put animals here for humans to eat," which I think is so f-ing arrogant it's up there with the geocentric solar system theory... but I digress. In any case, if the modern 4-H experience is as diverse as you say it is, AWESOME! And I could be pretty easily persuaded to give the organization the beneit of the doubt, considering I am not opposed to the possibility that it was just my area that sucked – those guys were a-holes anyway.

        June 26, 2011 at 2:34 am |
  24. C A Garza

    I was speechless, (then pissed as hell) when I saw Heather Kings comments on 4H and FFA. My girls are 35 and 29 and I myself, am a former 4H leader of a club in Texas. I moved out of the city and to a rural area so as to have the opportunity of raising my children in a positive rural enviorement. One that offered the benefits of these great organizations. Apparently many of the people think that WALMART or HEB wave their magic wand and poof more beef and poutlry just fly on the shelves. Sorry folks, it takes a bit more than that. And whomever thinks that these kids do not get attached to the animals they raise,well they are just stupid mindless individuals who know not of what they speak. They are taught that in order to produce the best quality product the animal must be fed properly, wormed regularly kept happy, calm and exercised regularly. Not mis managed, stressed out and ill handled at slaughter. These 4h and FFA youth are the ones that go on to college, major in agribusiness, graduate with a clearer understanding of what will better the industry and assist in integrating more humane and rational care in respect to the feed lots and slaughter facilities. Now does everyone understand that animal husbandry is but a mere fraction of what 4h is turely about. I ran a 135 member 4H that mainly taught about horses and the horse industry. In addition the kids participated in consumer decision making, which teaches them how to shop smartly, spend wisely and be able to explain why their choices are the best economical decision. They participated in the Adopt a highway mile clean up program, where every month they and their family members would go out on the dangerous highways to cleam up all the crap that lazy, careless individuals would rather throw out than take home and throw in their own trash cans. After this experience. not a one of those kids would ever toss even a gum wrapper out of a window, because they know how hard they had to work to clean it. I think these are pretty damn good values being taught, thus far. Now lets get into community servicehall we. These kids did not spend their weekends hanging out at the mall, they were at the nursing homes, at the handicapped horse riding facilities, at the community outreach centers volunteering their time, to help people not as fortunante as themselves, again a few more wonderful, life lessons learned. Then lets talk about public speaking opportunities. I have seen 8 and 9 years olds come into the organization scared to death to leave their mothers side, and afraid to open their mouths to even answer a simple question. With some great guidance and wonderful roll models of the jr. leaders in the group, by the end of the year these same kids were standing up in front of their piers, talking about personal experiences, giving little hands on demomstrations and feeling pretty confident in themselves. Yeah I can see where this could have a very negative effect on someone. Hell people get a grip. If you have never walked the walk, then don't talk the talk. About 6 years ago I turned over the reins of my 4H gorup to other responsible parents to carry on the blessing at hand. I have followed 4H my children on facebook, through their high school and college years , on into their careers, their marriages and their parenting challanges and I could not be prouder of the type of WELL ROUNDED young adults that they are. We are talking businessmen and women. Agricultural extension agents. School teachers, small animal and large animal Vets. horse trainers and breeders, commercial poultry breeders and the list goes on and on. I thank God everyday for the life lessons my own children learned from their many years in 4H and FFA. One of my daughters is a vet. tech and dog trainer, and the other one is a small scale dog breeder and trainer of some of the state's top field trial champion laboradors, both handling their businesses in a professional manner that not only benefits the quality of care that the animals receive while in their hands, but the positive manner they are able to communicate with people they do business with. Yep, yet another benefit of those horrible, horrible killing fied orginations you speak of. May God grant you half the wisdom and common sense of a 4h'r.

    June 25, 2011 at 1:14 am |
  25. smh

    I'm having trouble understanding just what is "unethical" about eating animals. Animals die and are eaten everyday, usually by other animals. "We are evolved enough to understand that we shouldn't," well, going by your own theories, that's how we "evolved" in the first place, we were animals that kept getting killed by something so we "evolved" to overcome it. So, wouldn't we want to keep consuming animals so they might one day start to realize they need to change and "evolve" too? Bottom line is, it's natural for us to be carnivores, it's part of the eco-system, if we all stopped eating meat the planet would surely find ways to get rid of the extra resources and would probably include us in the extermination. Want to save the planet? EAT MEAT. I'm not too concerned about these "evolved" "ethical" people though, they are already working towards their own extermination (homosexuality, abortion), soon the smart families who can live on their own, growing and raising their own food, and who had 15 kids, will far out number the "evolved."

    June 25, 2011 at 12:46 am |
  26. A Hunter

    These guys piss me off.... Just cuz you dont like killing animals, doesn't mean you spread bullshit lies, and BULLSHIT... if these guys that created this stupid ass story were having a meeting, I would come to the meeting with the deer and a rifle and show the little uneducated tree hugging faggots how a hunter kills and skins a deer

    June 25, 2011 at 12:20 am |
  27. hillbilleter

    The headline on this story is deliberately provocative and pushes buttons needlessly. If anything, 4-H teaches a respect for life and the abilities one can acquire living close to the land. Everybody can't live in a 5th Ave. penthouse without ever knowing where food comes from.

    June 24, 2011 at 10:37 pm |
  28. iluvfarmerstheyfedmysoul

    while i can not say i was a 4-H member i know for a fact that 4-H is a great organization espiliay for the younger kids who cant join FFA just yet. go to a local country fair in your state and your area and ask the kids there 4-H project or your SAE (supviosed Ag experince). i am proud to say i was a member of my local FFA Chapter and a member vairous Junior the ANGUS Breed.
    thourgh this i have learned that MEAT is GOOD For your Health because its filled with Zinc iron and protien...and while the push to be more vegan or vegatin is growing the way i see it is as long as there are still hungry people in world and as long as farming still goes on and is not rooted out by animal rights activist then there will still be a need to feed the world and our farmers can do that.
    those people on who dont know where they food comes from i encourge you to find out, learn more, and become educated take a trip to the county fair, or drive out to a dairy, or beef farm, or even plant just a garden.
    what i learn in life and in school i hope to use to help make a better nation for our farmers and my state. if we farmers are ever going to gain ground or proud 4-hers then we need to educate people .
    i too have been feedlots and processing plants the plants are spotless and i know that after an animal is killed they clean it all over again safe and satainy.
    this thing about naming your cattle i luv having an emtiomal attachment to mine that i show... i sell bulls...the only bull that did not get sold was elvis and he is in our frezzer he was a misbevhing bull and i could not show him so there are expections
    but i want people to that organzations like 4-h and FFA are great organizations...FFA taught me so much and made me come out of my shy shell and it can unlock so many doors for any body involed in it
    education is key to this battle!!

    June 24, 2011 at 10:03 pm |
  29. RightturnClyde

    This topic is just plain stupid. Do you think chicken comes in neat little nugget ball? Not so long ago we did not buy meat in a story .. you had to kill it yourself and clean it and serve it. Housewives HAD to launder clothes (by hand), hang them on lines, sew up torn clothes, make clothes, make bread (every day), make beds, pick and can vegetables, make their own jelly and jam and catsup. The could not afford to buy it. There was NO refrigerator and no electric light. This generation is so spoiled they think everything comes frozen in a bag and just "nuke" it .. or else go out and buy it (and it "comes" ready to eat). You fools. You %%$&## fools. Wake up. (before it is too late)

    June 24, 2011 at 8:43 pm |
  30. 4-H and FFA all the way

    I am a 4-H Alumni and I remember reading studies that were done about kids that were in 4-H and FFA. These studies show that kids raised in these clubs were less likely to become members of gangs or commit serious crimes as adults. Raising animals is only a small portion of what these kids get out of these clubs. They are taught record keeping, public speaking, and many more things that can help them throughout their adult lives. I would rather my son learn responsibility, patience, and discipline by raising animals for human consumption than to be out doing drugs, running with gangs, and someday possibly killing someone and ending up in prison. Oh and next time you eat a good steak, say thank you to all those 4-H and FFA kids who sold their steers to the local supermarkets for you to eat.

    June 24, 2011 at 8:35 pm |
  31. justsayin 2011

    Interesting thread. How about some science to go with the emotion. Humans are endowed with canine teeth. They are designed specifically to tear meat, therefore, humans are clearly intended to do just that. Now I would ask a question: Who is more ethical - the 4H kid who cares for animals every day in the pursuit of clarifying lines and improving the genetic stock available or the uniformed masses who think hamburger comes from those funny little styrofoam trays pumped full of nitrogen and stacked on supermarket shelves? I would posit that the kid involved in learning the proper treatment of animals is a far more ethical consumer than the uniformed masses who not only don't know where their food comes from, but couldn't care less so long as waiting for their Big Mac doesn't make them late for their latte before work. Feel free to avoid meat if that is your choice, but please exhibit the common courtesy and maturity to avoid demonizing those who choose to eat the meat humans have evolved to consume.

    June 24, 2011 at 8:30 pm |
  32. bud

    What a ridiculous load of cow poop. I'm sorry if I just insulted any of you poop worshipers. So you want to hide from your kids where burgers come from? What a crock. The only problem with 4-H is that it's paid for by the liberal cash cow known as the USDA.

    June 24, 2011 at 6:16 pm |
  33. Harry Pothead

    4H is a bunch of liberal hacks who work to undermine family values in the kids they indoctrinate. I would never let my kids join such a crowd.

    June 24, 2011 at 5:29 pm |
    • 4-Her

      you are stupid, apparently you are a fan of harry potter, so having your kids read about magic and fake things is more important than learning about the actual things that put food on your table....and for the undermineing family take a family to be apart of the 4-H program, not just the child, the whole family has to invest....there for it builds family relationships!

      June 24, 2011 at 6:47 pm |
      • Nichole GA 4-H'er

        Now Now. I'm a Georgia 4-H'er, and while HarryPotthead (?) post tears me up inside, because their kids will never gain the leadership, outstanding speaking skills, or making lifelong friends like we will. We shouldn't be rude about it. Rise above and be mature. I will agree with you that I am outraged by his comment, but let's show him that WE are the bigger person.

        June 26, 2011 at 11:29 pm |
    • John

      Really? they undermine family values? have you even been around 4-H? There is a something i would like call Family and Consumer Science aka FACS which if you knew anything about anything, 4-her's learn family values. Or maybe food sciences, or even fabrics science, or wait MAYBE even LEADERSHIP? but hey, if that is undermining family values, then i must have one f"ed up family!

      June 27, 2011 at 10:20 pm |
  34. Kristen

    I grew up in 4-H. Saying that it desensitizes youth to killing is showing that misinformation is truly the cause of the majority of anti-ag and anti-meat opinions. 4-H goes way beyond raising an animal. Many people have stated already that raising animals teaches responsibility, work ethic, how to humanely care for another life and so many other valuable lessons.

    Even more so, there is 4-H EVERYWHERE! In the county I grew up in, non livestock project outweighed livestock projects I'm guessing about 10 fold. The kids from the "city" were learning just as valuable lessons as us livestock kids were. On both sides we learned how to present a project that we completed, to take pride in our work, do the best we can, and to treat others with respect. My parents ALWAYS made us congratulate the winners in what ever category we were competing in.

    In meetings we all learned parliamentary procedure, which I took as speaking when it was your turn, listening to what others had to say, and coming to an agreement with a group of people (compromising!) even if you didn't like all of the terms of said agreement.

    Yes I grew up raising and caring for livestock and yes I eat meat. Just this past Christmas my brother and I spent hours in the barn trying to help a cow have a calf and then helping the calf get up and nurse from its mother so it would stay alive. 4-H taught us to do all of this. I am a proud alum of Long Creek Critters 4-H in Macon County, Illinois!!

    June 24, 2011 at 5:28 pm |
    • 4-Her

      i love your post! I'm a 4-h member from the jr. sunflowers/westfall winners club from Lincoln County Kansas!

      June 24, 2011 at 6:49 pm |
  35. thepoint

    That's a wonderful story, thank you. I still disagree, however, with the practice of traumatizing a child by making them sell a creature they have loved and nurtured. I'm not saying 4-H is a horrible organization, but I think this practice is. The sad thing is, a child cries over losing a beloved pet, all so a most likely overweight American - who doesn't need the calories - can chow down on a steak. Don't think it's worth the cost to the kid, the cow, or the overweight foodie.

    June 24, 2011 at 5:22 pm |
    • goodgriefpeople

      Traumatizing a child? Having been raised in 4-H and FFA and doing the same with my own children I see no traumatizing events. Watching children kill other children is traumatizing. A child being starved, beaten, and demeaned is traumatizing. Innocent people killed by religious zealots, impaired drivers, negligence or ignorance is traumatizing. Teaching children how to be responsible caretakers of their animals as a food source with an inevitable end point is not traumatizing. It is a lot easier to do that than to explain why their friend's grandma was killed in her bed during a home invasion. That was traumatizing.

      June 25, 2011 at 12:22 pm |
  36. Julia

    I was in many ways exactly the kind of kid you imagine when thinking of 4-H. In the morning before school, I put on my rubber boots, trudged out to the granary, filled up my buckets and went to feed my calves. I brushed them, I gave them baths using Suave shampoo, I sprayed them down with fly spray…yes, I knew my calves were destined for slaughter, but I loved them nonetheless. And yes, more than a few tears were shed outside of the sale ring…but my parents taught me that I raised my steers and heifers for the very purpose of providing for someone else.

    My mother was a 4-H extension agent before I came along. Both my parents were raised showing animals in 4-H. Instead of desensitizing me to the world around me, they brought my calves to school to show my classmates, made me responsible for taking care of my animals (albeit they helped out a lot, especially when I was younger) and instilled in me a belief animals raised for food should have an environment where they can be “happy cows.”

    4-H is not just for farm kids, but I’m sure glad we farm kids are included. Every day, I use my head for clearer thinking in my job. I use my heart for greater loyalty to my husband and my family. I use my health for better living by exercising regularly (I’m training to run a marathon), cooking meals at home when I can and eating healthier. I use my hands for better living for my community (I’m the block captain), my country (I am a proud Air Force wife) and my world. And, more than anything else, I am grateful everyday for all the lessons I learned as a member of the Eureka Homesteaders 4-H Club in Barton County, Kansas.

    Please read my full note on my facebook profile:

    June 24, 2011 at 5:11 pm |
    • 4-Her

      I too took part in the livestock project in my 4-H program as well. I learned so much from 4-H that, that is what i want to do with the rest of my life. I have been involved in the program since i was 5. I learned how to cook, sew, fix cars, care for animals, grow a garden, and many other life skills that a lot of other children miss out on. I know way to many people who do not know how to cook, or do anything for themselves and are completely dependent on other people to feed them or fix their tire...I am able to do it all on my own. I would never have learned the things i did had i not been a member of the Jr. Sunflower/Westfall Winners Club from Lincoln County Kansas.

      June 24, 2011 at 6:55 pm |
  37. thepoint

    Plus, I don't think anyone here has suggested we put the lives of animals above those of humans. That's such a knee-jerk reaction to anyone who dares disagree or hint at any issues with eating meat. Your posting was reasonable and thoughtful, but I hated seeing you rely on that old saw.

    June 24, 2011 at 5:10 pm |
  38. thepoint

    Not sure why the HSUS would donate to individual shelters. They're not the SPCA. They're involved in animal cruelty issues from small pets on up to livestock and wildlife. Please note that there are agri-business detractors who love to discredit the HSUS, so really dig into your sources. I found a site slamming the HSUS. I tracked it all the way to agri-business interests.

    June 24, 2011 at 5:04 pm |
    • Aaron

      @thepoint The only reason I brought up the HSUS and local shelters is because of their constant appeal to helping animals. I've heard about a few groups out there to take down HSUS, but I haven't explored them closely. The bottom line, however, is that they DO have a fairly radical set of views toward animal agriculture. I don't have a problem with individuals who don't consume meat or animal products. I think it is part of what makes our country unique and diverse. I do have an issue with those who would like to dictate miniscule lifestyle choices, like what we eat, instead of tackling bigger issues like our growing national debt or the war in the Middle East (not trying to open the bag of worms).

      I'm all for animal welfare, but not for animal rights. While no one has directly said that they choose not to put the lives of animals over humans, the action of having articles like this and organizations like PETA do exactly that.

      I am not a fan of slam campaigns by either side. It isn't necessary. But that's my $0.02 worth :P

      June 25, 2011 at 3:47 am |
  39. Aaron

    I'll be honest-this article make me a little sick. I have seen kids who were raised in agriculture (4-H and FFA) and those who weren't-as an employer, I'm much more likely to hire ag kids if I can (I live in LA) because they understand what it means to look at the bigger picture. They know what it means to put in effort to accomplish something. They are also some of the most courteous and considerate individuals you'll ever meet. If you think for a minute that they don't take into consideration the treatment of the animals, you're sadly mistaken. Although I'm not connected with agriculture, I've taken time to be educated about it, and many of you would do well to do the same.

    Agriculture is striving to find ways of continuing their practice. Many love to ridicule practices (which haven't always been the greatest), but forget that farmers eat out of the same food supply that we all do. They don't want to have a bad product.

    Please take a moment to consider the people. When we begin placing the lives of animals above the value of a human, there is something drastically wrong.

    Btw-PETA killed more than 23,000 dogs, cats and other animals from 1999-2008. The vast majority of money donated to the Humane Society of the Unite States (NOT your local humane society) goes to legal fees and lobbyists-not to animal shelters. Food for thought.

    June 24, 2011 at 4:57 pm |
    • goodgriefpeople

      As an agricultural producer and also an employer for the USPS I have found that work ethic is woefully lacking. There is no age bracket that explains this odd occurance. But there is a common background for these potential employees. No blue collar background. I can teach you customer service, computer skills, and financial matters. I can also teach you how to rope, put up hay, and put a well rounded healthy meal on the table. However, I cannot teach you to have a work ethic, empathy for others, and how to take a world view.

      June 25, 2011 at 12:13 pm |
  40. Obviously

    Why is it ok to pick on CHILDREN and not CORPORATIONS that are causing mass murder.

    4-H teaches RESPECTFUL RAISING AND PROCESSING of animals. It teaches LIFE CYCLE.

    CORPORATIONS are murdering animals unhumanely. There is NO reason to pick on children and the 4-H Program.

    4-H teaches life skills and character. You would have never posted this if you would have been through our program.

    Thank you.

    June 24, 2011 at 4:56 pm |
  41. Past4-Her4eversupporter

    Yes, 4-H children are horrible and they hate animals...yep, that is why 4-H turns out more students that become veterinarians than any other youth organization...Oh the Humanity!

    June 24, 2011 at 4:51 pm |
  42. Randall

    I hate vegetarians. Why are involved in the innocent slaughter of innocent plants, damn you. When I look into the eyes of a helpless cucumber it makes me sad to know that somewhere an innocent carrot might be put to death. Why must the killing of innocent vegetables go on. In only incites the use and destructiveness of cheese, who is horribly and publicly displayed on salads. People from California are the cruelest killing those innocent grapes. But I'm not going to talk about fruits, that's a whole other issue with people today in the modern world of computers and high tech society we live in. Next time you talk to a vegan, let him know that pulic opinion is changing, one day they will be punished by irregular bowel movements!!!,!,

    June 24, 2011 at 4:20 pm |
  43. mark

    "Vegetard".....yes, i like this new term, I'd love to see a handful of these fools starving to death on an island with limited food sources, how long would it be until they beg for anything edible.

    June 24, 2011 at 4:19 pm |
  44. Ide

    That there are people who believe raising an animal as a food source is barbaric sickens me. If you have never gone through the entire process that brings meat to your table then you have absolutely no room to talk, you have NO IDEA how these animals are raised, how loved they are, how well taken care of, ect... Have you seen how the big operations run their animals compared to how the smaller and 4-H operations do theirs?

    There can be up to 300 DIFFERENT cattle in your one single McDonald's hamburger, there is NO WAY to trace what happened to any single animal in those big processing plants, their medications, their food, ect...

    When you raise your own animal, or one for someone else, you know EXACTLY how that animal lived, what went into their care, what they ate, what medications they received, that there are no added hormones, ALL OF IT. And you also know that the more handled the animal is the easier it is to tell if there is something wrong with it so you can help it, and the less afraid it will be when it goes up the last chute. It will never suffer because it won't be afraid, it won't be panicking in the last few seconds.

    Yes, you care about that animal, but it is exactly that caring that allows you to appreciate how YOU survive. You get perspective on the world. Animals have to die in order for you to eat, but that does NOT mean we learn to desensitize ourselves to killing, we care just as much as the first time we did it, but we know that we have done the best we can in order to give it the best life possible before we end it. Can you say the same thing about that steak you had last night? Do you know how that animal lived? Did you appreciate it while it was alive, give it a peaceful existence without suffering?

    So yeah, maybe some of us cry, and some of us don't, but that doesn't mean the ones who aren't crying don't care, everyone expresses themselves differently.

    I did 4-H for 12 years and I'm still not "desensitized" as you call it; and I started when I was 5. "4-H teaching kids to be cold blooded killers" is a load of Bull. It's the rest of the population that needs some perspective on the world.

    June 24, 2011 at 4:14 pm |
  45. Past Nebraska 4-H'r

    Dear Heather King,

    Were you ever a 4-H member growing up? Did you raise animals that were your best friends just to sell them at auction, gain a large premium, and send them on their way? I did. Not only did I grow up on a cattle ranch, I showed and sold my market animals each year in 4-H, from my first year at 8 years old until I reached18. Did I have an attachment to my first few calves? Yes, absolutely. Did I know that they were going off to be slaughtered to feed a hungry family? Yes. Did I cry my first calf or two? Of course I did. Coming from a farm, I love animals of all sorts, and having to sell my prize steer named Sebastian did not ruin my love for animals. Why should we shelter our children with the outcome of their steer, rather than educate them so they know the whole process and can appreciate what other people along that chain of command do to produce the delicious hamburgers and steaks that we enjoy? I would rather educate my children to know the humane practices of slaughter and raising animals, than shelter them from that knowledge.

    Whose to say the animal sold at a 4-H auction is going to be mistreated before slaughter? Do you know how this process works? Let me enlighten you. Joe Meatpacker buys 20 steers at the county fair that he intends to render at his meat packing plant. The animals are loaded onto a trailer, hauled to the plant location, unloaded into the packing plant, and then slaughtered. These are not inhumane practices, yet acceptable standards in today’s slaughter practices.

    When the children see their animal go for a high price, of course they are excited. Do you know why? They know they raised a quality animal that someone was willing to pay a premium for. The child might even know the buyer, which adds to the positive experience of talking to the new owner of your animal. That is not desensitizing, that is getting and understanding the whole process. It’s an education difficult to teach outside of this example. It’s a fantastic way to establish relationships with people in your community.

    I have and will continue to support the 4-H, and other organizations like it, who educate, relate, and teach the youth of today about animal agriculture.

    June 24, 2011 at 3:53 pm |
  46. Past 4Her

    4h does NOT teach children to be killers in any sense of the name. that is completely bogus! 4H teaches children responsibility, respect for others and their property, leadership etc. many of our veterinarians were 4Hers. many of our doctors, scientist, politicians, etc were 4Hers back in the day. the only reason some people would say "4H teaches children to kill" is bcs many people out there today believe that we shouldn't care for animals. these people see owning a dog as slavery. NONE of these people have ever taken care of a sick livestock animal let alone any animal. i have many discussions with people of this nature. one stated that a horse was a ruminate and screamed at me bcs i told her that wasn't true. my professor told us a story about how he talked to this vegan on a plane that would eat chicken wings bcs the wings grow back. you know like a lizards tail. common people! do not this these people rob your children's lives of these wonderful animals. 4H is an amazing program that teaches children aspects of life many city children do not know (and some adults). children prosper into adulthood with amazing skills, and maturity bcs of 4H. oh and you don't have to be around animals, have them around home, or know anything about them to be in 4H! 4H has a wide range of activities for children to do to public speaking to baking cakes!

    June 24, 2011 at 3:42 pm |
  47. thepoint

    It's interesting that people equate being a vegan/vegetarian or just an animal advocate with being a whiner or weenie. It's a shame being see things in such black and white terms. Good to be open to other viewpoints. Not good to insult and label anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do.

    June 24, 2011 at 3:26 pm |
    • goodgriefpeople

      There appears to be bashing on both sides of the argument. However as we are all humans and as such think that our opinions, each and every one of them, are superior to anyone elses this will continue to happen. We are all entitled to our own opinions and life styles. I will not force mine on you if you will respectfully do the same.

      June 25, 2011 at 11:56 am |
  48. Trevor

    i just think anybody saying that 4H is trying to desensitize me needs to learn how this process works. im in 4h and i show MARKET aots. they go to the MARKET and i have known from day 1 my animals will be slaughtered. also the article talking about us being happy when we get our auction check we are. not because we are not sensetive to our animals going to a slaughter house but because we know our hard work has payed off and it covers our expenses in raising the animals.

    June 24, 2011 at 3:23 pm |
    • Trevor

      *MARKET goats*

      June 24, 2011 at 3:25 pm |
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